[Siderite]

Interesting how forecasts are definitely correct when it suits some, but dismissible when it’s the other way round.

I am rather sceptical that the mini-budget has anything to do with any current growth outcome. The IMF are predicting less growth in 2023, lower than many of those in this same figure. However, I am sure this can be just dismissed, because reasons, as it always is when it doesn’t suit the agenda.

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An ‘evolutionary worldview’ makes as little sense as a ‘gravity worldview’ or a ‘plate tectonics worldview.’ It is a scientific theory and no moral code comes from it, because it is an explanation as to how animals have changed through time. Your premise is flawed from the start.

At least you’re moving this elsewhere now, after triggering a reaction (I believe deliberately) on a thread where it is most unbecoming.

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Deereyme66

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What about Labour?

https://twitter.com/unionlib/status/1579818856897736704

Can’t trust it, Private Eye is a Marxist mag. :-P

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Way to hijack a thread about the injustices brought on by one religion, when it’s state sanctioned, with this pap.

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To emphasise this, how pathetic would it be for Labour supporters to say the Tories can’t complain about Corbyn anti-Semitism, because of their handling of the Windrush scandal, and the racism involved? You have admitted that an older guard of Tories have a racism problem, so using this logic of hypocrisy, we can just dismiss Labour anti-Semitism concerns.

We shouldn’t, because problems on one side do not justify problems on the other. There is no way we can improve things if we just shrug our shoulders and say “it’s fine, the others do it.”

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Disagree all you want, but the economy improved after black Wednesday,but Major still lost afterwards, with that being a pivotal moment of confidence loss. The charts of approval rating show every PM declining in approval rating. Truss is already lower than every former PM. It would take a brave person to pin hopes on hypothetical and rare rises in popularity.

The economic argument failed in 2016 for the US election and Brexit referendum.

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No it isn’t. If we all spent time pointing out hypocrisies of the other side no criticism would be possible. There’s a reason guilty parties say “look over there, they’re hypocrites.” It’s to deflect.

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Aye, 2011 Arab Spring protests never made headline news, because the west had cordial relations with some of the countries (e.g. Egypt).

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Both Rory and Dewhurst were and are poor. We haven’t had a good goalie since 2018, yet still we make the same mistakes.

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Awaywego

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An interesting article, and not from a left wing source or journalist before it can be dismissed as that, suggesting it is unlikely approval ratings for Truss will recover, regardless of any economic upturn:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/can-truss-ever-repair-the-damage-of-her-first-four-weeks-

There are elements I disagree with, but it’s a worthwhile piece, nevertheless.

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lol

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With the amount of goals we’re scoring and conceding I find it hard to compare it to Wilcox.

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Criticising the Tories for shadiness doesn’t inherently mean the left are angels. I think it’s best in arguments to not point the finger at another side, whoever it may be, because that reeks of whataboutery and diverting the point.

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Heath

[Siderite]

I did skim read, admittedly, and focused on the last part. Well, I will take any insinuation that anyone against Truss’s plan has to be against growth with a huge pinch of salt, since many of those attacking those against Truss’s plan couldn’t care less before.

Of course things might change, economically, but the decision to leave doesn’t look like it will improve things. Any deals with the EU will be worse than before, we don’t have the leverage to get a better deal, and no other country will fill that same void. Of course I could be wrong, but this is my legitimate opinion.

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I haven’t said it’s unique to the Tories, but it’s all worthy of critique. You rightfully critique left wing instances, but whenever a right wing instance comes up these arguments are made. It comes across as whataboutery.

This current government has been very sleazy, sleazier than any Labour, so I can’t agree with the latter. Though, that does not mean I think Labour are angels or without such problems. If you can state your belief, so can I, without charges of being some tribalist.

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Deereyme66

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Ah, yes, of course, the flatlining of investment and growth after 2016 has nothing to do with Brexit.

I accept others think differently, but I am not going to silence my own views if others can’t accept different opinions.

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“Any other leader would be 20 points ahead by now.”

Meanwhile Saint Jeremy led Labour to its worst election result in decades. Oh yeah, it’s someone else’s fault (it always is). If Starmer is a pot noodle, Corbyn is poisoned spam.

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Heath wrote:

“There is an interesting point in there, though. If someone has a minority view, they should be welcome to put forward their ideas without hassle”.

The point I was mischievously making! Emphasised again by Ms Truss and her ludicrous attempt to stifle argument through her invention of the anti growth coalition.

If she’s so sure, put it to a general election and we will see where the majority view is.

I did nearly put the thought down that this may have well been your point you were getting at.

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I am cringing a bit at the tone there, Heath. I disagree with JI a lot on faith based issues, but I have waned from my new atheist youth. If religion gives someone comfort, so be it.

There is an interesting point in there, though. If someone has a minority view, they should be welcome to put forward their ideas without hassle. Which means that campaigns to rejoin the Customs Union, Single Market or even the EU should be permissible, no matter the complains of the ‘will of the people’ brigade, and regardless of their merit.

The irony of Truss saying we need growth, and attacking dissidents as opposed to it, is that growth has flatlined since 2016 and it takes some cheek to blame it on those who opposed the trigger for that.

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Just Iron

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I don’t believe in others do it, so let’s turn a blind eye. It was bad enough with Labour and Mandelson, who was crooked. This lot take the mick, and no amount of what about Labour justifies it.

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You should know by now, Deerey, that the IFS or anyone arguing along similar lines can just be dismissed because they’re left wing/’experts’ we should be cynical of/part of the anti-growth coalition. ;-)

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Northumbiron

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One problem. There is no evidence Truss’s plan will even generate growth. However, I await to be demonised as a ‘usual suspect’ or whatever, because I dare to disagree with Bucks.

If you’re pinning your hopes on this, prepare to be disappointed, because it’s a tough ask to change now. The public don’t like it, because they’re not idiots, and can see what the consequences mean for them.

Like I said, from an electoral prospective, there is a reason why Labour are laughing their heads off and Tories should consider why before dismissing and pointing to hypothetical poll boosts from a point where Truss is even less popular than Corbyn.

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The anti-growth coalition is a cheap and nasty way of trying to misrepresent opponents and framing her own plan as being foolproof for growth. There has been a worrying trend in politics, globally, of demonising critique and making out anyone criticising is doing so in bad faith.

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Bucksiron wrote:

I don’t know why you think anything’s aimed at you, Siderite.

All sorts of funding of all sorts of organisations is “opaque” as you put it. You’ll find exactly the same behind numerous organisations across the whole political spectrum, including the left. Of course the media will spin this, which is fair enough but it’s hardly Watergate.

I took your comment to be a response to mine. I don’t think anyone is claiming it’s the Watergate, but we have a right to transparency. These Tufton St think tanks rank poorly in transparency indices, compared with others, left or right.

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Read the bit in brackets. I was clarifying that I may have misunderstood.

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So, you are arguing that their funding isn’t opaque and we should know what or who funds them, then? News to me. This is what I mean by lack of openness or transparency.

Maybe, instead of arrogantly blustering over others, you could take a step back and not patronise others and dismiss them as idiots not on your level, eh? ;-)

It’s this which gives me impressions of ego and arrogance, and it has little to do with people bullying you, because I have tried to be civil above. To no avail. Hypocrisy at its finest.

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Yet again Bucks resorts to tedious provoking to a post containing no insults aimed at him. Yet he’s always the victim.

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Deereyme66 wrote:

Well it would be if it were true. Siderite, I assume you were around at that time under the poster name ‘Bloodyrubbishiron’ (unless I’m mistaken?).

;-)

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I, for one, have never said the first sentence and I was disagreeing with someone who made the claim that Sunak wasn’t favoured because of race/ethnicity. I don’t know why you picked up on that, I thought you’d agree on that point. Unless I am misinterpreting your direction with that (I am doing so, because you are quoting me, the only one person to say race – I may be being sensitive, but I am used to being misrepresented by you now).

That second quote is a stated opinion, not one argued out, but one valid and not ridiculous just because you disagree.

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