[Just Iron]

Just to keep it straight IA … the reason they voted in Kansas is because the Supreme Court gave them back the right which Roe V Wade had removed. Thats all the Supreme Court did. Hope that helps.

[Just Iron]

I’ve got drawn in again, Deerey .. I should go to bed.
First .. there’s much that can be truthfully said to be negative about Trump’s character and presentation. No dispute from me. Having said that I actually don’t agree with you regarding his intelligence.
In terms of my comment at the time of the last election it was definitely a comment regarding a stark directional choice the US electorate was facing. Yes … the abortion issue would be one that would influence me greatly for the reasons outlined above… as well as other policy issues which concerned me from the Democratic Party. They may be wrong .. but I think the millions who have tasted this new direction and who reject it in the upcoming midterms will bear testimony that many have come to share my concerns.
If I had my way I would probably hope for Trump to endorse one of the several very able potential candidates for the 2024 election and not run again. Let’s see.

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Deereyme66

[Just Iron]

It’s definitely an emotional subject, Siderite so terms like ‘murder’ may well tend to inflame … as might repetitions of ‘ridiculous’ if you don’t like the argument.
I’d like to ask if it just Christian pro lifers that you have problems with … Or all pro lifers? And also whether you are sure that there is no ongoing care and concern from Christian groups and charities who take a pro life stance. I support a Christian charity that is definitely pro life yet also offers a range of services and resources to support mothers and children … and offers therapeutic counselling to the many women ( and some men) who come to find relief from pained consciences after an abortion which, in some cases, have plagued them for years. It is not the only Christian charity I know of which does the same. Maybe they are rare exceptions to your rule … but I don’t think so.

[Just Iron]

Siderite said : ‘You don’t think the unborn are embryos, zygotes or foetuses? That is ridiculous, no matter what the opinion is on the issue.’

Hi Siderite … first time in direct conversation with you. If you look again you’ll see that I didn’t deny that they are any of the above. What I did say is that they are not JUST that .. and these terms can be used to deny that they are emerging human beings. That is what I said. That is my firmly held opinion and I hope that, having explained it … even though you might disagree…. it looks less ridiculous.

[Just Iron]

On the matter of me and Gurney both being ideologues I think I can see where you are coming from but think you are mistaken. I definitely have clear and strong views … as does Gurney… but dispute that I am uncompromising and dogmatic to an unhealthy degree as I think he is. I try to see the others point of view and aim to keep it civil even when I disagree whilst, despite my best efforts, I’ve never been able to win Gurney over to the same approach. If your definition of an ideologue is simply someone with the courage of their convictions .. which I don’t ..then I would be guilty as charged.

[Just Iron]

Deerey said :‘I’m actually quite surprised you liked ‘thanked’ that post JI. Come on man, get real.’

I know it’s a hot topic, Deerey but I’ve never hidden my views so your surprise is a bit puzzling. I believe that it’s very real to advocate for the 40 million unborn in the world each year who never live to see the light of day, 200,000 plus year on year in the UK, 60 million in the US since 1973 and 9 million in the UK since the late 60s. If they are just pieces of tissue or embryos or foetuses or something else that denies an emerging human being then I can rest easy. But I don’t believe that .. so I can’t.

[Just Iron]

NI said : To be fair to Gurney, I’ve read his last post several times and can’t find any personal insults or misrepresentations in it’

Re read the opening statement then NI. Epitomises the kind of condescending and insulting statements that litter Gurneys posts. If you don’t agree with him then …because his perspective is self evidently right … then you must be either dim or wicked.

Nauseating.

[Just Iron]

WHAT YOU SAY??!!

[Just Iron]

Could have saved you time, Gurney. I KNOW that you have a perspective. Ideologically bound as it is I KNOW that there is validity in some of it. My point is that in your rigidity you can’t stay courteous. It’s a bit like the Englishman on holiday who thinks he’ll be understood by shouting louder.

[Just Iron]

Read my post again Gurney. No tantrums or rage in sight. Your lengthy post, peppered with insults and misrepresentations, simply serves to remind me why it’s so unrewarding participating once you show up. You seem to be especially narked when posters of different perspectives show a modicum of respect and courtesy. An example of your flawed approach … your assumption of my support for the Bishops in the Lords. If you weren’t the most ideologically ‘possessed’ contributor on Bru we could maybe have some decent exchanges but when you’re an ideologue there’s no room for the other.’ As I once said … when you get your revolution I sure as hell hope that you’re not MY inquisitor.

[Just Iron]

Paul Hurst at Grimsby?

[Just Iron]

ps apologies to NI for confusing him with IA .. and vice versa.

[Just Iron]

Ok. Since you asked in what seems to be a reasonably courteous way, NI … here are a couple of thoughts. First I was stretched at the time of the referendum trying to weigh the likely economic kickback for the UK against my own preference for decentralised government and nation state sovereignty… seeing this as more democratic. Despite all the assumptions of the previous poster I actually voted, albeit hesitantly, to remain. Once the result was announced I recognised that I was actually relieved at the outcome and have continued to be positive about the vote to leave. From this you might see that I won’t defend my view on the basis of economic benefit. What I would observe, though, is threefold.
1. The present economic ills affecting the UK are not all down to Brexit.
2. The discussion above should also take account of the state of many countries in the EU both economically, socially and politically .. as well as the whole EU project itself.
3. It’s very early days to make a genuine assessment. Let’s have another look in ten or thirty years before we draw confident conclusions.
That’s a thumbnail sketch of my thinking.

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Lord Kitchener

[Just Iron]

No ire, Gurney. Just valid observations about your approach to anyone who doesn’t see things exactly as you do. Your post above perfectly illustrates the point I was making … ‘your kind’ indeed!! I could be drawn into a discussion about the problems facing the UK alongside those facing many EU countries and the EU in its totality … but your nasty, egotistical and presumptive approach to discussion just makes it seem like a waste of time.

[Just Iron]

Agree fully with Deerey. Shouldn’t have happened.
Gurney…Don’t agree with where you take your post … Has it ever occurred to you that you paint in such broad brush strokes that you obscure the truth even as you try to represent it. My frustration with you is that you can’t break out of your rigid ideological stance and see any nuance. It makes real discussion impossible because you don’t really have any real respect for others unless they sit in your personal echo chamber. That’s why you resort to sneer, snidey insults … doppelgangers and demeaning … if anyone tries to bring perspectives that don’t fit your orthodoxy. In many ways you display the traits of a totalitarian. As I once suggested .. perhaps you should stick to posting Spanish my friend.

[Just Iron]

I can see how a changed kick off time is a bit annoying IA …. but for me, even travelling from Leeds, it’s only a minor issue. It certainly wouldn’t be enough to stop me coming. And from BT sports point of view … they are hardly likely to want to shell out for games and pour a decent amount of cash into our League if a large slice of their potential audience are doing other things. I’d rather have some TV interest and the cash with occasional and quite rare disruption than no TV interest or cash.

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bartonscorpion

[Just Iron]

Jordan Hallam has played an average of 6 games per season for 4 years with us… from the age of 19 to 23. Nobody likes to write a young player off … but that is a terrible record. Surely there must be some kind of recourse to insurance and a cutting off point for all concerned. To put it bluntly … if your body isn’t up to the rigours of professional football then maybe it’s best for all concerned to acknowledge this. I hope this latest absence is just a blip and Jordan comes back to make a decent contribution. Once thing is for sure … the club has given him an incredible amount of grace and there has to be payback sometime soon.

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alcazar

[Just Iron]

Then there was Martin ‘Ghandi’ Carruthers. Ghandi’s gonna get ya! Cool, efficient striker with a decent goals to games ratio over a couple of seasons.

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alcazar

[Just Iron]

Definitely Barrie Thomas with Nigel Cassidy next ( although Nigel May be a ‘romantic choice’ because this was the team of my late teens with Heath, Keegan, Kerr, Ashman etc, Friday night football, fish and chips and a sneaky bottle of cider on Frodingham footpath). After that it’s a close call between John Eyre, Andy Flounders and and Tony Daws. John Eyre I think.

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Iron-awe, cassidystash, lesgeo

[Just Iron]

‘Well, Bpg and JI can rejoice àll they like, it’s not happening in the UK any time soon and hopefully not in my lifetime.’

A genuine question, Deerey. Have you understood what happened over there? There was no ban on abortions. There was not even a statement from the Supreme Court on the criteria or morality of abortion. The ruling was on the Constitutional issue of whether the 1973 ruling was a correct interpretation of the US Constitution. ‘It’ couldn’t happen in the UK because we don’t have States founded with a legitimate measure of autonomy.

[Just Iron]

3rd point. All your female relatives and acquaintances share your perspective. Most, though not all, of mine share mine. Not good to assess reality anecdotally. Do you really believe that the pro life position is nearly all male!!?? Maybe you should widen your circle of female acquaintances.

[Just Iron]

Still one sided, NI. It’s not just about the woman if you see the unborn as a person. You clearly don’t. I do. We have different beliefs.
A second point. As a man I care about humanity. Male, female and unborn. That’s why I state my opinion.

[Just Iron]

Society does and always has based its laws and structures on belief, Siderite. The only point at issue in any society, both historically and currently, is which beliefs prevail. That is why I have presented my beliefs throughout this thread … and so has everyone else.

[Just Iron]

NI Surely you’re not saying that your wife and daughter don’t have time for logic and intellect?
I understand that this is an emotive issue .. on both sides of the debate .. but accusations like ‘It’s all about controlling women’ are just unhelpful. As are inaccurate statistics … 70% are pro abortion … and refusal to engage with valid analogies ie if I destroy a kestrel’s egg is it ridiculous to see it as a destroyed kestrel? The division between us is whether we see two lives or one. If you can’t ‘see’ a life if it is not out of the birth canal then it’s all about the woman. I think that to be unbalanced, immoral and the root of a barbaric practice which demeans us all.

[Just Iron]

Your perspective doesn’t surprise me, Deerey … we’ve explored this before. What I maintain is that it’s not as simple as you state. The issue of when human life begins is certainly central because then we are talking about two lives and their choices. A woman has several choices … not to have sex, to use contraception, to have the child adopted. A child in the womb has no choices at all. There was a point to my examples from the animal kingdom .. I use my intellect to try to think things through and then to articulate my conclusions … and I definitely believe my case is solid.

[Just Iron]

There are also profound societal implications when we fail to recognise the sanctity of human life. This is not just relating to the denial of opportunity for the conceived yet unborn or the pain and horrors of the abortion process. Neither just to the often lifelong, sometimes unconscious but often conscious psychological and emotional pain of the women involved.
A Christian like me also refers to the transcendent realm. ( Why wouldn’t I? After all …. I’m a Christian!,) The blood of the innocent has always mandated dark forces to take authority in any society involved in the sacrifice of the innocent, especially infants. I now cue the comments about ‘fairy stories’ and childishness but unapologetically state that age old demonic forces such as Baal and Molech and countless hordes of evil are actually real and given sway when we engage in sub human barbarism. Cleansing the USA or the UK … or anywhere .. of this practice would be a huge progressive step for our kids, grandkids and all of us.

[Just Iron]

Firmly with BPG on this one. No surprises there!!
Well over 98% of abortions are ‘retrospective contraception’ … it’s never wise to base policy on examples from the extremes. In the UK we allow abortion up to birth for such disability as cleft palate, ‘club foot’ and Down’s syndrome. Sheer barbarism. The point NI makes about Pro life groups not caring about ongoing welfare is simply wrong. The data does not support it. By far the most ‘social capital’ invested voluntarily towards the poor and marginalised is recognised ming from faith groups.
The crux of the matter is where does human life begin …. and we enter the debate about viability, consciousness, potential etc If I take a an egg from a kestrels nest and smash it or a still blind infant badger from its sett and tear it to pieces exactly what have I destroyed?

[Just Iron]

Thanks, Deerey. A bit slow on the uptake but have worked it out now.

[Just Iron]

Just stumbled on this thread .. still not sure how…. non football?
Very encouraging post lesgeo. (cue the Gurney guy who only seems to appear to call me Les and claim we are doppelgangers)
I didn’t pick up in the past that you had a strong faith. My wife and I have equally struggled in formal/religious settings but join regularly with others in homes to worship and play our ‘history shaping’ part in prayer/intercession. I have had the pleasure of meeting BPG in recent months. Would love to do the same with you.

[Just Iron]

I like a bit of creativity, f row. Well done sir.

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ironking

[Author]

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