[Bucksiron]

“I can still understand why people do it though.”

It’s totally and utterly pathetic, there are no other words for it. While there are people in the Tory party, including MPs, who could very easily be classed as scum it’s exactly the same for Labour and, indeed, any other political organisation. Anyone who claims otherwise is just naive. Many on the the left believe they have a divine right to ‘goodness’, which couldn’t be further from the truth.

As for the need “to show good judgement”, what a joke. Starmer and his colleagues campaigned for Corbyn to be PM while you lot all supported him. In reality, “good judgement” is only ever easy with hindsight.

[Bucksiron]

Good try, IA, but a long way from the truth. Of course change will come, it’s ridiculous to say otherwise and I don’t have a problem with that at all.

Now, I would have had a problem with Corbyn, no question, but even the Labour party knows that going back there would be committing suicide. That’s why I just have to laugh at Gurny and you lot supporting him. As I say, Gurny, please keep it up.

[Bucksiron]

The usual suspects at their very best. Support for an antisemite who thinks nothing of belittling mental health and claiming “That to be a Tory you just have to hate people”. Wow, what very nice people you really are.

The thing is that I have plenty of socialist friends, relatives and even a business colleague; and, yes, they are proper left-wing socialists. I get on with them all really well, which is exactly how it should be; and do know what? Not a single one of them would support the comments made by Gurnelista let alone support them, as you lot do.

This is why your words are like water off a duck’s back, Gurny. You’re exactly the sort of person that Starmer doesn’t want supporting the Labour party for the very reason that you damage its reputation. He’s right, of course, and I really respect him for that even if I don’t agree with his politics.

So, all of you, just carry on as you are. It’s all fine by me.

[Bucksiron]

You may well be right, Gurny, but the young will just have to learn from their own experiences when socialism crashes as it always has and always will.

What you’re failing to understand, because your ideology doesn’t allow you to see beyond the end of your nose, is that the current economic problems are down to crazy energy prices; and the idea that renewables are “cheap” is pie in the sky. Tbh, the last thing Labour really needs right now is an election. Of course Labour would win, there’s little doubt about that, and of course they’d blame the economic problems faced by the country on the Tories. That might get them through a year or so but I can assure you that Starmer’s drive for net zero by 2030 is going to put a trillion pound hole in the deficit, let alone a few billion. I’m sure you won’t agree, which is fine by me.

What the left can’t accept is that you have to generate wealth to pay for health, education, defence and everything else needed by modern society; and without the people to create that wealth in the first place your workers aren’t going to have work and the state isn’t going to have the money it needs to do what it needs to do.

Truss could see this but there’s no question she screwed up while the party, in its wisdom, failed to back her. It’s a massive opportunity missed and Truss has to take responsibility for it, but be in no doubt that history will prove that what she wanted to do was right even if the implementation was atrocious.

[Bucksiron]

Ah yes, of course, just blame everything on Brexit. Yawn. There might be a general election, who knows. The Tories are a bunch of wets so that would just be swapping one lot of wets for another.

As for Sidey’s “whataboutery” — what an absolutely ridiculous word — let’s wait and see. I’d be delighted for Starmer to turn out to be a good PM, but I’m definitely not holding my breath.

[Bucksiron]

You really are one very sad person, Gurny. You represent the very worst side of the left, which, frankly, has no place in a democratic society.

You have zero understanding of people and your comments reveal a damaged soul. I truly pity you.

1 user thanked author for this post.

billpuntonsghost

[Bucksiron]

Absolute shambles. She did perform remarkably well at PMQs — regardless of the comments above — but, of course, she had to go given what then happened.

What a totally useless lot our politicians are. It will be no better under Starmer. As bad as SUFC.

[Bucksiron]

And why are power cuts likely? What an absurd situation.

“None of the above for today’s youth, warehouse packers and parcel delivery men.”

That is not the case, Heath, there are many more opportunities for higher education now than there were in the 1970s; and if people want to learn or retrain there are numerous ways of doing so that cost much less than in the 1970s, especially online.

On top of that the relative cost of goods has decreased enormously. A very good indicator for this is how many people own cars. In 1970 around 50% of UK households owned at least one car while that figure is now over 75%. I grew up without a telephone in the house while now virtually every single person in the family has their own phone.

The real disaster for people now is the price of energy. This is affecting everything, including interest rates. The reason interest rates are rising is to address inflation, which has primarily been driven by… energy prices.

Net zero is driving poverty.

[Bucksiron]

Same old, same old. If anyone truly believes things are worse now than in the 1970s they need their heads examining. Mind you, as a result of net zero we’re likely to be facing power cuts, which is truly ridiculous in the 21st century. I tell you what, Sidey, I’ll arrange for you to live in the UK in the 1970s and we’ll see how you get on. That is if you can get out of your door for the rubbish piled on the streets, afford to buy anything with almost 25% inflation and interest rates at almost 14% (they actually peaked under Thatcher in the early 1980s).

If you want to look at what’s driving poverty, it’s energy costs. The reason for this isn’t down to Putin, although he’s exacerbated the problem, but crazy net zero targets. Energy costs went through the roof because renewables couldn’t cope with demand and natural gas was in very shorty supply due to the Western World failing to protect supplies in order to meet green targets. Putin simply took advantage of this, so not only did this create energy havoc but also played a role in starting a war.

Absolutely nothing frustrates me more than the most needy in society not getting the help and support they need. It isn’t even as though the money isn’t there. It’s a question of whose pockets it’s going in to and it isn’t the most well-off as many of you like to claim. The truth is that getting the richest to pay more will make relatively little difference. The top 10% of UK households already pay around 50% of UK tax revenues and the top 20% pay over 60%, with the top 50% paying nearly 80%.

But, of course, you lot aren’t interested in the facts. If you really were you’d look at where most of the tax money actually goes. A great deal of it ends up in the pockets of the public sector with their gold-plated pension schemes. The public sector pension liability is close to GDP, which is an astonishing fact given this is money from the UK people, including the poorest. But, hey, if it’s going to support our bloated public sector then that’s all OK. I also commented on NHS pensions the other week, which again are grossly unfair on the poorest.

So, would I be prepared to contribute more to help the neediest in society? The answer is a resounding “yes”. The problem is that very little of it would ever trickle down to them because it would be used — in fact it is being used — to cover the costs of those who really don’t need it. Like the consultant anaesthetist I know who is enjoying golf while working part-time for the NHS, which is facing horrendous backlogs created by lockdowns that weren’t necessary in the first place. Or the retired GP couple on a pension income of £96,000 a year.

[Bucksiron]

Hiding? She’s doing a very good job at PMQs. I don’t think Starmer knows what’s hit him.

[Bucksiron]

Siderite, I had a fabulous time in the 1970s. One of, if not the best decade of my life. Music, university, no worries and girls. But I’d say by the standards of the ‘reasonable man’, which I clearly wasn’t (!) it was a dreadful time. Many people actually enjoyed WW2, but I don’t think it would be unreasonable — or incorrect — to say the 1940s were worse than the 1970s.

Deerey, it isn’t preposterous at all. One of the biggest failures of UK governments over the past 25 years has been to focus on short-term, vote-winning policies at the expense of long-term security and prosperity. You were all moaning and groaning about austerity while supporting a socialist approach to massive borrowing under Corbyn, compared to which Truss’s plans were a drop in the ocean. The markets have become immune to risk, just taking the printed money and hedging currencies, which isn’t difficult given the strength of the dollar; and even that’s mainly because the Fed hiked interest rates when the BoE should have been doing the same.

Despite all of this, Labour believes it’s become the ‘responsible manager’ of the economy. Yeah, right. Starmer’s plan to hit net-zero by 2030 is pure fantasy. What people on the left forget is that renewables account for a very small percentage of the country’s energy use. The cost of achieving this will be eye-watering to say nothing of the infrastructure requirements. It’s totally and utterly bonkers and if Starmer puts this at the centre of Labour’s strategy then I wouldn’t bet on an outright Labour victory no matter how badly the Tories are doing. That is, of course, providing the Tory MPs actually grow some balls and stop behaving like a nursery class, which I wouldn’t bet on.

Ultimately, as I’ve said on numerous occasions, all politicians are pretty useless regardless of their political party.

[Bucksiron]

Of course it isn’t some else’s fault and that’s a ridiculous thing to say, Deerey. What part of “shambles” don’t you understand? Or maybe you didn’t read my comment properly?

And I’m not blaming anyone but Truss and the Tories, Heath, so that’s also a load of cobblers. The Government’s screwed up massively, as have the Tory MPs. I’ve made that very clear.

None of that alters the basic facts. The markets have targeted the UK even though our economy’s in better shape than many others, including the eurozone. Having screwed the mini-budget, which as I’ve said on a number of occasions was appallingly handled, Truss should still have stuck to her guns, reminded the markets in no uncertain terms that the basic plan would greatly increase the likelihood of significant growth and her MPs should have rallied behind her.

Finally, Siderite, I can assure you that what’s happening now is nothing like as bad as the seventies when both the Tories under Heath and then Labour under Wilson and Callaghan presided over an even bigger shambles. That isn’t opinion but fact; and if you don’t believe me, you need to check your facts.

[Bucksiron]

Oh, there are plenty of things about market forces that I don’t like, TW, but I don’t think there’s a better system. In life nothing’s ever going to be perfect.

A colleague of mine, who just happens to be a socialist — doesn’t bother me and we get on very well — is a Man City season ticket holder. I tease him about the money side of Man City’s success given his political views and in true football supporter style he says: “I know, but I’m just enjoying it while it lasts”.

I’m quite sure that if the club was doing OK I’d manage to overlook a lot of other things that are wrong with the game. I’ve absolutely no idea why the club’s position has affected me so much, but it has.

3 users thanked author for this post.

IRONINTHEBLOOD, North Lincolnshire Irons, TwoWrights

[Bucksiron]

Ha ha, Gurny, of course we’ve been here before. In fact it’s been far worse than this. SUFC would have been dead and buried in the 1970s if the current system of relegation from the basement league was in place at that time. So let’s not kid ourselves about that, though obviously things are in a terrible state at GP.

As for the Government, it is, indeed, a shambles, but claiming it’s the “most catastrophic period of political leadership this country has ever seen” is absolute nonsense. Anyone who can remember the 1970s knows things were far worse than they are now.

As for what’s happening now I’m appalled by the Tory MPs representing the party. Yes, the mini-budget was appallingly handled, which is an enormous shame because it was fundamentally what the country needs. The markets have played the Government like a fiddle, targeting the UK and making a fortune by shorting the pound while Tory MPs have behaved like a bunch of school children. Senior members of the party should have rallied behind the PM and told the markets there would be no return to printed money and easy pickings. But now it’s back to square one and an opportunity for change has been squandered.

As for Labour, I can live with them under Starmer although the party’s plans for net zero on steroids will create their own economic nightmare. The fundamental underlying problem for all of this is crazy energy prices brought on by the absurd drive to net zero, which Putin’s exploited to the full. This is the real issue and unless and until energy prices are brought under control the West’s economic problems will just get worse, yes, even with Sir Keir at the helm.

[Bucksiron]

I’ve hardly watched any football at all this season. My love for the game has evaporated. Despair at what’s happening at SUFC and despair at what’s happening to the game at all levels. I normally love the World Cup but can’t imagine watching any of it. Qatar of all places, in stadia built on modern slave labour. Money, money, money from overpaid players to hypocritical pundits.

I just wish that I no longer cared about SUFC, but in reality I do. It’s back to the bad old days, just worse.

13 users thanked author for this post.

IRONINTHEBLOOD, W4rdie, Isle Iron, inspector, IRON TERRIER, Just Iron, waltersleftfoot, cokeovenkid, alcazar, BarnardFoxtonBarker.., Iron-awe, bartonscorpion, Siderite

[Bucksiron]

I don’t come on here to be liked or agreed with, Siderite. What you or anyone else on here thinks of me is of no importance whatever. That is entirely up to you.

What I thoroughly object to and do my best to counter is the way people on here hurl appalling insults, abuse and accusations at anyone on the right; and, no, I’m not talking about those with extreme or racial views, which I abhor as much as anyone. I’m talking about everyday Tory people, such as myself, who believe in the individuals’ rights, open markets and smaller state.

[Bucksiron]

Absolute shambles. She should have stood up to the wets in the party and seen through the original plans. Hugely disappointing.

[Bucksiron]

In fact I have fantastic friends from all walks of life, including nurses and carers, Heath. Some friends are extremely wealthy and some extremely poor. My own grandmother was poor — she brought my mother up on her own after my grandfather died of cancer when mum was only 15. A farm labourer, she had little money, never owned a house, never owned a fridge and didn’t even have hot running water right up to the day she died, which wasn’t that long ago. She was my inspiration. I loved her to bits and we were incredibly close.

The greatest thing my grandmother taught me was to respect other people and their views, no matter who they are. Rich, poor, black, white, famous, nobody. The trouble with this board is that anyone who supports the Tories is immediately labelled. Racist, shady, greedy, selfish, scum, you name it. It couldn’t be further from the truth.

[Bucksiron]

You might actually be surprised, Deerey.

[Bucksiron]

Neither failure to understand nor gaslighting, Siderite. What you’re claiming to be a “simple point” is totally and utterly irrelevant and ‘tending to agree’ that the “racist morons comment” is “too broad brush and made by someone who has glossed over Labour anti-Semitism” is pathetic.

The comment is pure abuse and if you or anyone else can’t see that then you — and they — are either blind or stupid.

[Bucksiron]

The Tories don’t stand for ‘self interest’, Deerey. What they do stand for is individuals having the right to make decisions and take responsibility for themselves, with as little interference from the state as possible. As for free markets, presumably you’re saying Labour doesn’t stand for this? I think you’ll find otherwise, at least under Starmer. Regarding social order, that can mean a lot of different things though I strongly suspect your meaning is really ‘social hierarchy’? If so, you’re even more stuck in the past than I thought.

The really interesting point here is that the vast majority of Tories would absolutely agree with workers rights and ‘for the greater good’, though I doubt you’ll ever agree that to be the case. The problem is that the people who really need the help are the ones least likely to get it and this is where things become rather more complex. I have a lot of sympathy for low-paid rail-workers but if the unions insist on running the 21st railway system with 19th century working practices then I have a problem; and, no, I don’t think the rail companies are great either.

Similarly with the NHS. Of course nurses need more money but I have two friends who are now retired GPs on joint pensions of £96,000 — and they stopped working at 60. I have a friend who is a consultant anaesthetist, enjoying life playing golf by working part-time on a crazy NHS salary and with a gold-plated pension to look forward to. Consultants are stopping work because they have to pay more tax to top up their £1million+ pension funds; and so it goes on.

[Bucksiron]

I’m pretty fed up of snide comments — and worse — from all over the place, Siderite. Anyone seriously believing that I’m referring to the use of ‘abominable’, ‘crooked’ and ‘terrible’ is a fool.

If you — and TW — can’t see what the comment really said then you’re either blind or stupid.

[Bucksiron]

I’m not missing anything, Gurny, wilfully or otherwise. What you’re doing is using the stats to hide the real numbers, which is a classic trick. 12% of 9.5 million is 1.14 million, which is a very big number of old people.

As for your comment that “most migrants tend to be young, single, healthy and wanting to work and pay tax”, the stats I used from Oxford University clearly show that the percentage of migrants in the 26 to 64 age group is half as big again as those who are UK born, while those who are children or youths are much lower. Of course the percentages apply to a smaller population — of migrants — but, again, this still means a lot of people. As for paying tax, migrants have historically held lower paid jobs and will therefore have paid a lower proportion of tax. However, I suspect this is changing, which in my opinion is a good thing as more will now be getting higher paid work.

You then come out with your usual nonsensical references to the ‘Daily Mail’, racism and anything else you can throw in to paint this absurd stereotypical Conservative. I’ve already pointed out that I have absolutely no problem with immigration, in fact I’m all for it. But claiming immigration hasn’t put additional pressure on public services is just denying the facts.

As for Windrush, I wasn’t at all happy with what happened, in fact I was appalled. But, hey, don’t let the truth get in the way. In the meantime, I don’t recall you EVER saying you were or are appalled by the anti-Semitism in the Labour party. Maybe Jews aren’t worthy enough for you to care too much about them?

Your final comment is just one great big, fat lie, but then you just can’t help yourself, can you. I’ve never been racist in my entire life and never will be. I have nothing to be remotely ashamed about. Have you?

[Bucksiron]

“Some of it is quite tame”?! Cobblers. It’s pure abuse about anyone and everyone connected to the Tory party and making excuses for this type of language is contemptible. And Labour claims the Tories are nasty. It doesn’t get much nastier than this.

But, hey, I’m sure the usual suspects will all back you up.

[Bucksiron]

It certainly doesn’t “hurt my feelings” and I agree, TW, that the left and right both have their share of dangerous nutters. Furthermore, I’m all for free speech and against what’s become a very PC-dominated world. But no matter how much you try to make excuses for this type of language, or break it down into more ‘acceptable bits’, it remains pure abuse.

[Bucksiron]

Not true, Siderite. I never believe forecasts and just because I’ve quoted it doesn’t mean I think it’s correct. In fact I doubt it very much. It’s the markets and the media that demand these things, not me. I’ve simply quoted it to demonstrate that EVEN the IMF does not believe the Government has ‘crashed the economy’.

As for 2023, I tend to agree with you although the question remains what would have happened without the current strategy? I personally believe growth will be stronger as energy costs are likely to come down given more natural gas will be available. It’s even possible that the Government won’t actually need to support people as much as expected, which will make a huge difference to borrowing and related costs.

[Bucksiron]

As opposed to you and your mates, Heath, who just agree with and thank each other all the time.

The idea that those on the left are more caring and somehow better than those on the right IS total and utter rubbish. The irony, as always it seems, just goes above your head. The left always loves to make out it’s more caring and better, which makes something of a mockery of your comment about me being a ‘sole judge’.

[Bucksiron]

Heath (and TW), if you don’t find this comment in the OP abusive then I pity you:

“Dirty filthy con men and women. Not in my lifetime has a government behaved so abominably,the worse they behave ,the more racist morons love them.”

Are you seriously saying that is acceptable? These are nasty comments. There’s no other word for them; and as usual, of course, it’s full of irony given problems Labour’s had with anti-Semitism, which is racism, and the numbers who supported them.

[Bucksiron]

You’re the one who needs to check their facts, Gurny. The percentage of children and youth migrants is significantly lower than UK-born while the percentage of migrants between 26 and 64 is much higher than UK-born and around 12% of migrants are 65 and over compared to 20% of the UK population. These are big numbers of people in the older age groups who are far less likely to be paying the same proportion of taxes. I don’t personally have a problem with this but saying they’re not having a big impact on public services is quite simply untrue.

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/migrants-in-the-uk-an-overview/#:~:text=In%202021%2C%20people%20born%20outside,or%20people%20of%20retirement%20age.

As for recession, again that isn’t true. In addition, we’ve just heard that initial figures suggest August saw a drop of 0.3% in GDP, which is precisely why the Government’s taken the action it has while the IMF is now saying the UK will have the fastest growth of G7 countries this year. It’s also the case that while the UK’s inflation rate is very high, this was brought down enormously by the mini-budget while support for the pension funds by the BoE has only been necessary because of the crazy risks they’ve been taking to cover final-salary pensions.

The markets and everyone has become used to cheap and easy money but that has to stop. The Bank should have increased interest rates earlier and the fact the Fed did so much faster and higher is one reason the pound has suffered, although this is true for all the major currencies, including the euro. None of this means the Government hasn’t made a lot of mistakes, which it clearly has, but again that doesn’t mean the economy is anything like as bad as being claimed by the predictable suspects.

As for recruitment, this is a big problem. The irony here is that it’s largely down to people not working and the reasons for this are very much open to debate. Some claim it’s down to illness while others claim it’s down to personal choice following the pandemic and the reality is probably somewhere in the middle. Of course Brexit will have had an impact on this but as Deerey’s article says, so will many other factors.

[Bucksiron]

I think you’ll find plenty of shady money filling coffers on the left, 64, from many different sources, e.g. China.

Siderite, nothing personal but that’s a daft argument. A definition of ‘hypocrisy’ is “the practice of claiming to have higher standards or more noble beliefs than is the case”. This sums up Labour very nicely.

It doesn’t reek of ‘whataboutery’ or ‘diverting the point’ at all. Take NI’s comment, which is irony personified given the left is always claiming higher moral ground through exactly this sort of approach. We see it all the time on this board.

[Author]

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