You wouldn’t believe it

[Iron-awe]

Well we got almost 12 hours of divine silence, maybe he should harken the words of Simon & Garfunkel?

[Siderite]

Why does this site need to gospel message spreading? It’s a football site and the points have been laboured by BPG on several occasions to no avail. BPG, JI, IronAge and others have found solace in their beliefs. That’s no issue for me. Yet the treatment of this site as a conversion ground for BPG grates and is unlikely to succeed.

[Iron Age]

Just for clarification, I have never tried to evangelize any one on this site.
I will occasionally defend my position against those who would attack it.
I learned, at the age of about 5, that some people don’t like me because of who I am and what I believe. That’s when the name calling, insults and stone throwing started, difficult to explain to a 5 year old, it had a profound effect on me, until I reached six feet.
Should I have bowed to their threats, never.
Babylon.
I will not “take the soup” no matter who’s offering.

[Siderite]

I don’t think you have evangelised. Blimey, 5 is an early age for that kind of thing. :-O

[Deereyme66]

Religion is not getting a good look on here

[Just Iron]

Siderite wrote:

Why does this site need to gospel message spreading? It’s a football site and the points have been laboured by BPG on several occasions to no avail. BPG, JI, IronAge and others have found solace in their beliefs. That’s no issue for me. Yet the treatment of this site as a conversion ground for BPG grates and is unlikely to succeed.

A bit of a mixed response from me to the above, Sidey. First this side of the Forum isn’t a ‘football site’ but an alternative place to explore wide ranging and diverse ideas. Secondly I don’t see why the presentation of certain beliefs should be somehow taboo. There are relatively few threads based on or even including Christian context on here.. certainly in comparison to humanistic, atheistic or progressive perspectives. If we look back at the opening few posts on this thread it seems reasonable enough to me that Christians should be free to respond. Bill is clearly eager to share his perspective and hopefully win over some of his audience …which, I suggest, is not uncommon to other posters too. If he sincerely believes in his views then why wouldn’t he want to share them as others do? Having said all of that I recognise that its probably more the nature of Bill’s ‘gospel message spreading’ that has irked you a bit.
Where I understand how Bill’s approach ‘grates’ with you centres on your aversion to ‘Dogmatism.’ I find myself in agreement with you … with a qualifier to follow. If ‘Dogmatism’ is something like ‘the presentation of ones views as self evident and beyond reason or discussion’ then I am with you and also with others on the thread who have called out Gurney and others as well as the more dogmatic aspects of Bill’s approach. Being ‘Dogmatic’ is formulaic and lifeless to me and I prefer the creative and enriching willingness to have one’s ideas tested and refined. I reckon a good, and healthy, approach is to interrogate our own beliefs from time to time ..let alone being open to having them tested by others.
Where I depart from Bill is not in the content of his argument but rather that he seems to lapse into frustration and then resorts to the posting of those video clips which just annoy people and come across as ‘dogmatic.’ I also think that being sensitive to the audience and the essence of the topic rather than forcing the flow into ‘evangelistic statements’, however true they might or might not actually be, switches people off ..or irritates them to bits. This can then be interpreted as being ‘offended at the Gospel message’ when there is a fair chance that it’s actually being offended at the ‘dogmatic’ approach.

Having said all of that I refute any suggestion that holding to ‘a Dogma’ is being Dogmatic. It seems to be a very recent idea that its virtuous to have no solid convictions about ‘Truth’, especially in the Spiritual realm, and that if we do … then we should keep them to ourselves. I know its subtle .. but bear with me. Here goes.
It probably won’t surprise you that I am in agreement with Bill’s premise that subjective morality loses its anchor outside of an ideal, absolute authority ..that authority being God. That’s a dogma .. a dogma being a system of core beliefs in any political or religious system. (I think it is worth mentioning that Christian morality is anchored NOT in something beginning in first century Jerusalem but in the thousands of years of the Judeo-Christian teaching and ancient revelation. It’s interesting to note how even atheistic and agnostic commentators in recent years are starting to harmonise with the meaning behind Nietsches statement that ‘ God is dead ..and there will not be enough tears to wipe away the blood!’
I definitely do believe in the ‘Dogma’ or foundational principles of Christianity … ‘Christ has died. Christ is risen. Christ will come again.’ I hold as true the teaching that there is a transcendent Supreme being; that He is good and loving and longs for relationship with every person; that even though we enter the world with our spiritual faculties totally impaired they can be ‘switched on’ by a process of radical and humble seeking, called repentance, and all of this leading to the recognition that Jesus death and resurrection, at great cost, opens a way for us to enter this relationship.
That’s my sincere belief …. My dogma. Its undoubtedly offensive to many. It always has been .
What I want to avoid is forcing it into every discussion thread, giving the impression that I don’t care about the questions it presents to people and not knowing when to call a halt. Failure on those issues seems to me to carry the valid label of ‘dogmatic’ and leads to people being offended for reasons other than the intrinsic challenge of the message itself.
(A free beer to anyone who has read through this!! Now I’ ll have to see when I can get some time to answer Bill’s challenge)

[Siderite]

I am not bemoaning discussing non-footy on a non-footy sub-forum. My point is in response to BPG bemoaning you not preaching the gospel like there is some need to do so. It irks people and achieves nothing, as can be seen to the responses to the preaching. That is why I mentioned it being a football forum. Not because there’s no need to speak non-footy issues, but questioning the need to act like a missionary when this sub-forum should be about debate, and it’s one of those topics that has been done to death, along with climate change and Palestine, so I don’t really see what more can be gleaned from it. BPG’s demand of you to show the Christian message to others seems pointless and I would suggest any preaching of the gospel message should probably be left elsewhere (though I am not calling for censoring), since everyone has heard it and if they haven’t been swayed by now, they are unlikely to in future.

As for the rest, I have said my piece and don’t want to drag it on too far. All I’ll say is that my point was that BPG’s characterisation of morality as being flawed because I see the issues stemming from rigid ideology from religious to political to nationalist, and those taking such beliefs to an extreme. It wasn’t to argue against people having such a position, it probably is impossible to not have one (certainly politically), but rigid thinking leads to people making decisions that harm others for the ‘good of the cause’. So, no, I won’t agree that God is some necessary marker for morality. Many have used the argument of what God deems moral to commit heinous acts of immorality, all because of rigid thinking.

[Siderite]

Tl;dr: My response to BPG was less about debating religion, more about his complaints about you not treating this site like a preaching session. I was questioning the need to do so on a football site where most are by now familiar with such points of view, and the need to treat others like a mission to be preached to.

And to add to the last bit, I wasn’t speaking of not believing in the message of the Bible for Christians. I was meaning what you had said in the bit where you said you agreed. Where I am against closed minded opinions of other beliefs or putting one’s beliefs (no matter what they are) above the impacts on others. When people do that, it leads to issues.

[billpuntonsghost]

“…Now I’ll have to see when I can get some time to answer Bill’s challenge.”
Your schoolteacher patronising,pompous,arrogance always shines through in your posts. Your insulting , “ I’m only trying to help” message which led to our fallout ( with no apology to a person you virtually knew nothing about) is systematic with your approach to life.

[Deereyme66]

‘It’s interesting to note how even atheistic and agnostic commentators in recent years are starting to harmonise with the meaning behind Nietsches statement that ‘ God is dead ..’

Who do you have in mind JI? I’d be interested to know. We might be able to take a closer look and see just how atheistic or agnostic they actually are. Or aren’t.

[Just Iron]

Bill … you challenged me to show where I’ve ever shared my beliefs and not just my label as ‘Christian.’ It took some time to formulate an answer to Sidey so I couldn’t answer you straight away. I stated that it’s my intention to give an answer ….. and you’ve read into that an insult. If you genuinely think that airing your grievances in public and throwing derogatory labels around is a representation of the gospel then no wonder Deerey can conclude that ‘religion isn’t getting a good look on here.’ You’ve been hurt by me. It wasn’t my intention. If I could turn the clock back I would never have responded to your offer to meet up .. but I can’t. I thought I could give you some helpful insight. I was wrong. It’s time to extend to me some of the forgiveness you have received .. and move on.

[Just Iron]

Deereyme66 wrote:

‘It’s interesting to note how even atheistic and agnostic commentators in recent years are starting to harmonise with the meaning behind Nietsches statement that ‘ God is dead ..’

Who do you have in mind JI? I’d be interested to know. We might be able to take a closer look and see just how atheistic or agnostic they actually are. Or aren’t.

Aayan Hirsi Ali is one who has ‘full on’ abandoned her atheism and actually moved to Christianity. The main one that sprang to mind was Richard Dawkins who just a few years ago was saying :’I don’t despise religious people, I despise what they stand for. Mock them! Ridicule them! In public!’
In an LBC radio interview a few weeks ago he was asked what Easter message he would give to listeners and astounded many people by claiming to be ‘a cultural Christian’… though not a believer.. who loves ‘ the Christian ethos.’ I felt that this was relevant to at least a part of the discussion on the thread in that such a prominent atheist ..even anti -theist.. was sounding more moderate and nuanced and connecting with the values in the Judeo Christian tradition … without necessarily embracing the dogma as true.

[billpuntonsghost]

“and you’ve read into that an insult.” NO.
My reply was in connection with your character.

[billpuntonsghost]

Regeneration precedes Faith. This is vital to understand in the Christian faith.Some have a more Pelagian view of salvation ,unfortunately.

[billpuntonsghost]

.”.use your intelligence and read some books” was a classic!

[Gurnelista]

Give over, the both of you! It’s like two bald men arguing over a comb!

Just forget the mumbo-jumbo and stick to the ethos – all faiths except the most fundamental share the same, basically humanist values such as compassion, forgiveness, honesty, etc. It’s the mumbo-jumbo that kills.

Iain Banks puts it well in his book ‘The Quarry’. His character Guy, the father of an autistic youth, is dying of cancer, and comments:

“I shall not miss being part of a species lamentably ready to resort to torture, rape and mass murder, just because some other fucker or fuckers is or are slightly different from those intent on doing such harm, be it because they happen to worship a slightly different set of superstitious idiocies, possess a skin occupying a different position on a Pantone racial colour wheel, or had the fucking temerity to pop out of a womb on the other side of a river, ocean, mountain range, other major geographical feature, or indeed, just a straight line drawn across the desert by some bored and ignorant bureaucrat, umpteen thousand miles away and a century ago. Frankly it’s a relief to be shot of the necessity to be watching such bollocks play out.”

[64]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/paula-vennells-church-career-in-tatters-after-post-office-scandal-despite-bold-ambition/ar-BB1mPR7m?ocid=msedgntp&pc=U531&cvid=f990d7a0cf5944f2875bf6a73fd3d535&ei=45

[Iron-awe]

Well Paula Vennells lied and has bared false witness so I’m guessing that’s two of the golden ten rules she is supposed to live by gone for a burton from her own supposed Christian lifestyle.

[billpuntonsghost]

..your view of Christians as Bible bashing,self righteous ,do-gooders if naive to the extreme.

[Fifty Pence]

billpuntonsghost wrote:

Regeneration precedes Faith. This is vital to understand in the Christian faith.Some have a more Pelagian view of salvation ,unfortunately.

You may prefer the idea of original sin and no free will, others will disagree. Regardless of whatever belief you’ve been taught to believe in, there’s always doubt. None of us know for sure if we are correct.

I personally don’t believe in any good, I don’t believe there has been a Roman census requiring people to return to their place of birth. I don’t believe there was a global flood (I will happily believe there was a large flood in the river basins around mount Ararat). But I might be wrong, just as bpg might be wrong and
Pelagius might be wrong

[Just Iron]

Gurney … How did you know I’m bald? Are you moving in the Spiritual gifts?

BPG said : ‘ May I ask ,where have you ever presented the Gospel message on this site? Besides trying to be fair and show a holier than thou attitude,and showing you are a “good”(in human terms)person,trying to show other people how to behave,where have you declared we are sinful people who need to repent and put our faith in Jesus Christ(etc) . You have declared you are a Christian,true, but as for any interactional,you declare anyone who does that is confrontation and fighting a kind of battle to be won! Our friendly disagreements led to a false character assassination about a person you hardly knew ,and an arrogant attitude than had failed to seek reconciliation.’

In answer to the above question Bill about when have I ever spelled out what I mean by claiming to be a Christian I would ask you to look again through this thread as a starter but also read one clear example below from January 2023 which is just one amongst several over the years. I suspect that you may not accept it because it doesn’t quite fit your own style but nevertheless it is a gospel invitation to repent and come to faith and points anyone interested to some helpful literature:

‘In challenging one another’s views we are all surely aiming to bring others to a more healthy and accurate perception of reality. The danger is, of course, and as Gurney kind of indicated but with evident lack of self awareness , that when our deeply held notions are challenged we may well lapse into a defensive ‘flailing’ where, at its most pathological, we resort to misrepresentation, mockery, insults, name calling etc An invitation to interrogate our own beliefs and even begin again is at least a strong part of the meaning of the Biblical term ‘Repent.’ Because of its association with ‘finger wagging’ and ‘fun spoiling’ it certainly ain’t a popular word … but when, for example, I’m asked to change my view on my faith it is .. essentially .. a call to repent. A call to adopt a new reality and live out of that. I’ve actually done that .. although in the opposite direction .. once in my life .. at age 24.
And all of that leads me to say that I totally get why there is such a spectrum of responses on the Forum whenever I take it in this direction. It’s because a Christian claims to ‘see’ something that isn’t visible. And that can be puzzling to some .. but downright frustrating to the point of anger to others.
If you’ve seen Kevin Costner’s allegorical film ‘Field of Dreams’ it’s the Brother in Law/ Financial advisor who warns the family to sell up before bankruptcy. They are absorbed in the spooky baseball game that people will eventually flock to but which brother in law in total frustration can’t see. Then he can. And his advice changes.
The realm that I ‘see’ is hidden even though its right here. It’s transcendent but not distant. Deliberately so. God wants to be pursued because he knows that in that process something happens in the depths of a human being. Then they begin to ‘see’ into a realm that mere limited reason and perception by the five natural senses can’t access. Jesus said that ‘unless a man becomes as a little child he cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.’ The perception to many is that anyone believing that has indeed become childish. Its been said on the Forum in various ways a number of times. But the intended meaning is that we approach these matters with an openness and honesty and humility which can only be called ‘Childlike.’
With such an approach we might talk more attentively to that relative or friend who claims to have a faith. Or we might send off for ‘Surprised by Joy’ by C S Lewis. Or have a listen to John Lennox or Alister McGrath. That’s what I would do if I were you.
So I’ll sign off with one encouragement … ‘Repent ..For the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!’

[billpuntonsghost]

The words patronising,pompous and arrogant are words I didn’t choose lightly.
Your insulting post which led to our fallout ( which you constantly dismiss as “ get over it”) is the reason I use those words. Have I forgiven you,completely. Have I got over it,completely. But until you realise you were completely wrong ,speaking to a person you hardly knew,and unable to say sorry for the hurt inflicted ,I will consider the words fully appropriate.

[Siderite]

[billpuntonsghost]

“..have a listen to John Lennox and Alister Mcgrath.Thats what I would do if I were you.”
I rest my case. Your low opinion and snobbery is blatantly seen in your post.
You haven’t a clue about me have you!!??

[Iron-awe]

Your more transparent then you realise or perhaps you are genuinely unaware, it’s a trait of arrogance.

[Just Iron]

Bill ..it was a qeneral quote from 18 months ago as part of the answer to your question. It wasn’t directed at you personally.
If you have forgiven me ..completely…and got over it … completely… then it would be a relief to see that demonstrated.

[billpuntonsghost]

Have you repented of your “clumsy” post and offered an apology? Only a regret you used the word “ limp”
. You have not fully apologised with conviction.i have forgiven you,moved on,but you are still unrepentant. There’s the problem.”I’m only trying to help you in your Christian walk”,as the saying goes..

[Iron-awe]

The Christian bitch fest continues, hallelujah.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Northumbiron

[Deereyme66]

JI and BPG. Why don’t you just meet up again and reconcile your differences? Life’s too short and you’re too old to be behaving as you are on a public forum.

[Northumbiron]

Ah, the the forgiving nature of Christianity!

[Author]

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