You wouldn’t believe it

[Gurnelista]

Some may think that the whole of Saudi Arabia is mad, with its Islamic fundamentalist ‘lifestyle’. But just look here at the disturbing similarity between the madness of the Middle-East and these evangelical Christians in the US of A. Worse, is their pharaonic funding of Israel, and their fairy tales about Armageddon and a ‘second coming’. Unebelievable in the 21st century, in a supposedly advanced country?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001z96s/storyville-praying-for-armageddon

[Siderite]

Fortunately, these specific brand of fundies don’t have the same sway as Islamic theocratic movements in many Islamic countries, but the Christian right as a whole are a force in the Republican party.

[Ironfan]

Its disturbing how religions brain wash and exert control over people in the name of a mythical being

[Deereyme66]

Bit like our previous owner.

[Gurnelista]

Ironfan wrote:

Its disturbing how religions brain wash and exert control over people in the name of a mythical being

Aye, how can these people call themselves rational when they deny evolution, and have all these strange ideas about Armageddon and a ‘second coming’ of the one they call Jesus??? It’s as if Darwin had never existed!

There should be more radical atheism campaigning to rid the world of religious belief, especially this totally bonkers fundamental kind. How can people think this nonsense is true?

Then again, I suspect many of those in the film don’t really ‘believe’ very much. It’s as if something has gone wrong in their lives and going to church and cheering gives them a kind of support and communal feeling which they don’t get elsewhere.

[Iron Age]

“There should be more radical atheism campaigning to rid the world of religious belief”.

So where would you start, Judaism?
The final solution?

Spare us the evangelical atheism, you sound just like the extreme fundamentalists that haunt the planet.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Just Iron

[Deereyme66]

Campaigning for radical atheism? No thanks. I’m not in favour of fundamental religion and neither am I of it’s opposite. One of the biggest problems in the world today are these extremist oppositions up against each other. The sooner we move on from this dualism the better.

[Just Iron]

Couldn’t have said it better, Iron Age. Gurney’s as near to an obsessive as anyone I’ve met in Church …and I’ve met some crazies.

ps I believe, along with millions both through the ages and currently …
‘Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again!’ :)

[Gurnelista]

Nahh, the obsessives/crazies are the evangelicals. The proof is in your last line of your post.

Just take a step back and imagine you’ve come to Earth from another planet, and you see the chaos, death and destruction in Gaza, human beings who look and live in quite similar ways, yet one side believes in one kind of superstition, and the other believes in a different one.

We need to hear more atheist voices in government and education speaking out against pre-modern ideas about the world, to bring some sanity.

It often starts when kids are young and impressionable. Children shouldn’t have a religion forced on them. Let them find one later, if they want.

People should be free to believe in whatever – Jedi, Jesus or Boris Johnson, but when it comes to telling lies and waging war over it, they need to be kept in check.

Further removing religion from politics and public life, and a greater spreading of the word about evolution and a scientific understanding the human condition would be a significant step in the right direction. If that sounds radical, it illustrates how far down the religious rabbit hole some of us currently are.

[Just Iron]

You definitely are down some kind of rabbit hole, Gurney. The only thing I agree with is …’ people should be free to believe in whatever.’ That was a relief to read … after your desire to campaign to ‘ rid the world of religious belief.’ Kim Jung Un … Pol Pot … Stalin … Xi. As the ol’ geezer used to say on the telly ..Some folks don’t never learn.’

[Just Iron]

ps the last line of my post is proof of nothing but my faith. The fact that you see it as you do simply shows the pathology of your outlook.

[Iron-awe]

Quite agree about children and religion, I never had a choice it was baptized at 8 weeks and done, neither of our two children were christened and now both in their forties they both say t it was the correct decision on our parts as parents. Education and teaching kids things the right way to be a valuable and caring member of society is one thing, indoctrination is another, not for me thank you.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Just Iron

[Deereyme66]

I’m not down any kind of religious rabbit hole Gurney. I’m not religious at all, and it illustrates very little as far as I’m concerned, other than you too are evangelising.

[Just Iron]

My kids too, IA. I wanted them to choose for themselves. I was ‘christened’ like most kids of that era .. but then baptised by choice at 23. All 3 of my kids independently asked for Baptism at ages 12, 15 and 18.
There could be a big discussion around ‘indoctrination.’ I suppose it literally means ‘ putting in doctrine/ teaching.’ I suspect that, in most cases, its a label for criticising ‘the teaching of things as true which I don’t personally subscribe to.’ In reality it seems that most caring parents in all societies seek to pass on their values and outlook to their kids. One man’s indoctrination may be another man’s teaching of values.

[Iron-awe]

Fair comment JI, I should also add that I attended confirmation classes and took the confirmation service at 13 overseen by the then Bishop of Lincoln. It was mainly because a few of my mates did it after being encouraged by their parents but we all regarded it as a laugh and never were really interested. As I got older I became totally disinterested and just stopped all religious input as I became more aware of the wider world and what was going on. Since then I have rejected all religion and came to the conclusion a long time ago that it was just a control exercise and when I see the way poorer countries are seemingly so dependent on it it just convinces me more that the poorer the people the greater religion takes control. If they are happy and needy belief in their lives that’s fine by me and I have no problem if religion gives some people comfort but I’m happy believing in my version of things and I think we should all respect each others positions, certainly people going out of their way to convince me of god and religion get short shrift in fact many religious people I know don’t even bother now, they know my position.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Just Iron

[Gurnelista]

Aye aye-ey, I was baptised and went had a taste of it all at school and to some extent at home. Soon gave up on it though, particularly when abroad and seeing the similarities common to decent human behaviour everywhere, and the way people basically inherit their superstition from the state. Oh, and learning about the history of religious thought; how it was basically a pre-scientific story to help people understand the universe – how pretty much every country and community had its own version until they were conquered and forced to adopt the story of the rulers.

As for JI’s point, passing on values to kids such as honesty and kindness – which we all do or should – is quite different to indoctrinating them with mythology.

If someone in the media or public life comes out with wacky beliefs they rightly get called out for it, David Icke for one, Glen Hoddle for another.

More important tho’, is when it involves our public representatives such as MP’s. Yet, for some reason the religious ones get away with it, like the ‘Lords Spiritual’, despite having crazy ideas about second comings and goings and even denying evolution!

Nobody would take seriously a person who believed, say, that babies are brought to families by a stork, or that the dead return as insects. Why should it be any different with those holding views based on superstition?

The main problem is, I suppose, that by declaring their atheism and challenging a religious view of the world, many would be worried about losing their electoral popularity and privilege. And they may lose much more. If they put their cards on the table and honestly called out the craziness of Christianity or any other superstition, as many folk did with Hoddle, Icke and their like, they might need start wearing a bullet-proof vest.

But it wouldn’t be any atheist who’s holding the weapon.

[Just Iron]

Yeh … right. The weapons of the world are only held by religious folk. Atheists have nothing on their charge sheet!! Deluded.
If a person in public life declared their atheism ‘they would lose their electoral popularity and privilege.’ Bonkers.
Gurney..its not that there isn’t a kind of pseudo logic to some of your posts ..but the glaring factual errors, the exaggerations and the dismissiveness just make you come across as the very ‘evangelistic bigot’ that you rail against.

[billpuntonsghost]

GURNELISTA-“As for JI’s point,passing on values to kids such as honesty and kindness- which we all do or should-is quite different to indoctrinating them with mythology.”
In your worldview “there is no God”,why should all people follow your ideology of honesty and kindness ( which we all do or should!)
If totalitarian regimes come along and say, there is no God,you ideology of honesty and kindness is bollocks,we are going to do the complete opposite in order to achieve our aims of dominance and control. If there is no God ( in your opinion) why are you right and they are wrong?

[Northumbiron]

God? Control? Hmmm!

[billpuntonsghost]

You make no sense NI. What sort of response is that to my post? You understand my point ,but your worldview has no answer to it. Maybe Gurnelista will defend his position?

[Deereyme66]

‘If there is no God (in your opinion) why are you right and they are wrong?’

There doesn’t need to be a god to be right or wrong.

[billpuntonsghost]

My point is Deereyme66, if in your worldview there is no God,you cannot DEFEND you are right in stating ,passing on values to kids such as honesty and kindness is the correct thing to do.If someone states the opposite,why are you right and they are wrong,if there is no God?

[Deereyme66]

Is the answer, pigeons?

[billpuntonsghost]

…the answer I expected .

[Deereyme66]

Avian intervention

1 user thanked author for this post.

TwoWrights

[TwoWrights]

Hmmm, subtle or succinct? I’ll go subtle, I see the Bible bashing Looney Tunes is back with his hackneyed drivel.

[Gurnelista]

Bill, you ask this question about where values come from if there is nobody effectively in charge of it all. The short answer is that the origins of morality lie within us all, they are a product of biological and cultural evolution, just like religion.

As for JI’s comment, you’re talking in tongues again, not sure what you’re on about.

But, human rights and the freedom to believe in whatever, are important. People can and will believe in all sorts of weird things, but creeds based on a pre-modern understanding of the world, such as the idiot evangelists and their representatives in the film, have no place in public / political life. This is not the Middle East, and anyone who believes in Armageddon, second comings, while denying evolution, is seriously unfit for any kind of public role.

Point is, we deserve to know what our elected representatives really think. Do they really believe in this type of superstition, mythology and mumbo jumbo? Some would resent being open about it, perhaps aggressively. But as above, the violent ones won’t be the atheists.
So, let’s hear it for reason and science, and get rid of prejudice and racism for which religion is so often used as a fig-leaf.

[billpuntonsghost]

NO, the question I asked,Gurnelista,was if there is no God ( your opinion) how can you DEFEND your claim passing on values to kids such as honesty and kindness is the correct thing to do,if someone claimed the opposite is true?
You see Gurnelista,as you were made in God’s image,even though you are rebelling against your Creator,you have to steal from the Christian worldview to make sense of your life.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Just Iron

[billpuntonsghost]

[Deereyme66]

With a look like that I’m not opening that link with a barge pole. Giving me serious Brokeback Mountain vibes.

‘get rid of prejudice and racism for which religion is so often used as a fig-leaf.’

Garbage that Gurney. You persist with this dualism but it’s meaningless. Some of the greatest scientists past and present are religious.

[Author]

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