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Nah, millions or even billions of pounds of corrupt Tory spending is the subject of this thread!!
Evening Bucks!
Good if you to cut and paste your last contribution.
Aye, but his now usual MO of ‘popping in, drop a bit of wholly predictable bait, and totally refuse to engage’ guff. Still, if you’re gonna be a tosser be a top class one! 😋
Thought I’d have a look in following today’s excellent result. Nothing changes — same old posters, same old comments. The number of “thank yous” have gone down, however, which is hardly surprising given you’re all just agreeing with each other (cue BRI).
How are things going in the Labour party? I see that Starmer’s shaking things up a bit. Talking of which it’s strange how few comments there were around the anti-Semitism report. Funny how something so fundamental should be so ignored by those who find faults everywhere but in their own backyard.
I love it how you make out that you’re somehow the more critical on this than anyone else, when I know for a fact that you have a more positive vision of that irascible, racist crank who once led Labour than I do.
Pretty hard for a debate to kick up on the EHRC, which I gladly made comment on (which is more than anything you have ever done on the Tories – and before you start about how this is me playing one-upmanship, I am only responding to the kind of self-satisfied comment of yours).
I am more than happy to slam Labour where needed, and not with mealy mouthed comments of “of course Labour have done wrong, but what about the Tories?” I see Diane Abbott has been palling around with members of the CCP who have engaged in denial of mistreatment of Uighurs in China. I would quite welcome her hook being slung from the party and rid it of these ideologues out to poison it.
Pretty hard for a debate to kick up on the EHRC, which I gladly made comment on when there aren’t voices to the contrary there. Maybe if the 99% posted apologia for Corbyn, as I suspect he would have done if he was still around, it would have been more lively.
As someone who has gladly sounded out such I will sleep comfortably in calling out the horribleness of the Tories, which have not been negated by the moral failings of Corbyn and his clique.
Personally, I feel Bucks is misunderstanding the Corbyn support on here somewhat, which maybe isn’t a surprise given that he’s not of the left so doesn’t have the awareness of the differences between factions.
Corbyn support included the ‘hard left’ who are die hard cultists and old wisened socialists who have spent years engaging in the kind of socialist activism Corbyn has been involved with for years. You have the ‘soft left’ who will support Labour no matter what, are impressed by Corbyn’s socialist credentials even though they don’t fully engage in methods themselves. Then you have the hopeful young who think Corbyn is a vehicle for the progressive change they want to bring and think it fully aligns with their idealised hopes for the world, be it on social justice, climate change or issues they face (i.e. rental issues).
These are broad brushes, and they can only be used as general definitions for where people’s politics lay. However, I get the feeling that many on here lie within the ‘soft left’ category, though I’m sure there’d be differences between views. The ‘soft left’ have been the most willing of Corbyn supporters, alongside many of the young too, in accepting Starmer as leader because they were never fully committed to the idea that Corbyn is the sole representative of Labour values. Bringing up Starmer’s change of course does nothing to shock them, because they’re not that bothered about it.
Hence we don’t have grumblings of Starmer betraying the ‘true Labour’ values of Corbyn. Their view of the world is that a right wing press is vilifying of Labour and they will defend the leader no matter what, which is what we have seen here. I admit to being frustrated in the past at the dismissal of concerns over Corbyn, because while right wing vilification of Labour leaders is ever present (Blair, Miliband and Starmer have all been victims of it; even Corbyn got some when the press obsessed over the non-stories like him being a Czech spy), it cannot be argued that Corbyn was unfairly smeared over what have been shown to be institutional problems taking root over anti-Semitism and his pathetic excuses for Russian excesses in Syria or the Skripal case.
Would I like to have seen more push back on here? Yes. However, none of this changes the sheer inadequacy of “what about Labour?” when Tory problems are brought up on here by the same people. There are sometimes points to be made about perceived hypocrisy, but hypocrisy never changes the rights or wrongs of what the hypocrite is highlighting. In refusing to engage with the issue at hand the claimant of hypocrisy becomes hypocritical themselves, because they continuously claim the other side is only highlighting problems of the opposite side, which is exactly what they’re doing too.
Anyway, back on topic now, here is an article on worries about Tory conduct over election suppression:
And no “what about Labour?” arguments are available to rationally dismiss it.
You should check your facts, BRI. I’ve said on numerous occasions that there are racists in the Conservative party and everything needs to be done to get rid of them, though many are literally dying off as they do tend to be the older ones. That doesn’t mean more shouldn’t be done to tackle racism in the party. However, the Tories do have a mix of race and religion far broader than Labour in senior positions, which does send out a very strong signal.
As for “misunderstanding the Corbyn support here”, what a joke. I don’t recall many people on here having a big problem with him less than 12 months ago in an election that was going to put a true socialist in power. Gurnelista’s “the Tories are finished” makes a great epitaph for the left of the Labour party he supports, which once again was rejected by the British public with a complete humiliation at the polls. Of course the likes of him and Fans come out with the same old nonsense about the media, etc, etc, but Starmer isn’t so stupid.
It doesn’t need Einstein to see what’s happening on this board. It isn’t a message board but a moaning board. Of course all the moaning is about the Tories, which would be fine if there were at least some recognition of Labour’s own weaknesses. Ironically I agree with rather more of the comments on here than you might think, because I recognise the Conservatives are far from perfect; and this government has been pretty useless. The point is that I don’t need to come on here to know that.
But this isn’t going to change unless and until Labour gets its own act together, which will never happen while the likes of people on here do nothing but complain about everyone else at the same time as patting themselves on the back with pathetic virtue signalling. As for “Labour values”, what a load of tosh. Anyone who thinks the Conservative party’s made up of greedy right wingers only in it for themselves while Labour supporters are on the side of the angels is only kidding themselves.
‘The number of “thank yous” have gone down, however, which is hardly surprising given you’re all just agreeing with each other (cue BRI).’
It’s hardly surprising as there’s no ‘thanks’ function anymore. And yet, you still raise it as though it’s an option. It’s Trumpism at best. And if it was an option surely we would be using it if we’re ‘all agreeing with each other’? Critical thinking seems to evade you,like many in the top echelons of your beloved Tory Party. You know,those who are supposed to be leading the country rather taking it to hell in a hand cart? Have a little think about that.
Jeremy Corbyn is an ex-leader of the Labour Party. He’s gone. Get over it.
There’s no one on here bleating on about David Cameron and the damage he did by instigating the Brexit referendum.
Brexit will damage the country far more than institutionalised racism in a political party.
Bucks’s once a month whataboutery post is submitted because even he can’t put a positive spin on the state of affairs at Westminster.
He’s like the toffee-nosed gent who walks briskly past a homeless person and mutters “Disgraceful! Get a job.”
‘What a load of tosh’. ‘What a joke’. ‘Pathetic virtue signalling’. ‘The same old nonsense’.
Are you incapable of creating a post without so many caustic phrases in it? Surely you’re old enough to know it doesn’t, in any way, validate your points? It’s a real sign of petulance and nothing much more.
In my opinion, the standard and range of discussions, the willingness to debate the point without constantly questioning the intelligence of posters, HAS improved considerably during your absence.
The fact that a handful of posters have broadly similar views is just the way it is. Get over it!!!
Your usual “I recognise the Conservatives are far from perfect” just doesn’t cut it, it never has, given the absolute shambles of leadership over the past 12 months.
The fact that you are still banging on about Corbyn and the fact that Starmer is a Sir, suggests to me that Starmer is doing pretty well.
You should check your facts, BRI. I’ve said on numerous occasions that there are racists in the Conservative party and everything needs to be done to get rid of them, though many are literally dying off as they do tend to be the older ones. That doesn’t mean more shouldn’t be done to tackle racism in the party. However, the Tories do have a mix of race and religion far broader than Labour in senior positions, which does send out a very strong signal.
As for “misunderstanding the Corbyn support here”, what a joke. I don’t recall many people on here having a big problem with him less than 12 months ago in an election that was going to put a true socialist in power. Gurnelista’s “the Tories are finished” makes a great epitaph for the left of the Labour party he supports, which once again was rejected by the British public with a complete humiliation at the polls. Of course the likes of him and Fans come out with the same old nonsense about the media, etc, etc, but Starmer isn’t so stupid.
It doesn’t need Einstein to see what’s happening on this board. It isn’t a message board but a moaning board. Of course all the moaning is about the Tories, which would be fine if there were at least some recognition of Labour’s own weaknesses. Ironically I agree with rather more of the comments on here than you might think, because I recognise the Conservatives are far from perfect; and this government has been pretty useless. The point is that I don’t need to come on here to know that.
But this isn’t going to change unless and until Labour gets its own act together, which will never happen while the likes of people on here do nothing but complain about everyone else at the same time as patting themselves on the back with pathetic virtue signalling. As for “Labour values”, what a load of tosh. Anyone who thinks the Conservative party’s made up of greedy right wingers only in it for themselves while Labour supporters are on the side of the angels is only kidding themselves.
Every time you do so you always qualify it with a but before referencing Labour. I class condemnations of Tory racism as meaningless if you follow it up with a “but” comment about the other party. I don’t question your commitments against racism, I am not calling you racist, but you only ever mention it as an “of course I condemn racism” before going on to the crux of your point on here on specific issues which is that of Labour. You are right that many on here did ignore it, but your arguments against issues in the Tories look like deflection. Saying “of course I oppose Tory racism, but what about Labour?” smacks of the pathetic arguments used by Corbynites to deflect from anti-Semitism when they used to say “but what about the Tory racism, which is the real issue?” You’d see the weakness of their defence when they use it, so I wonder why you do over the Tories.
I was pointing out the intricacies of the Labour support generally found in public, including on here. I was trying to present it neutrally. I specifically said I would have liked more push back and acceptance of its seriousness on here, and anywhere else, so I am not apologising for it. People did dismiss it as smears, unfortunately, but I am pointing out that your comments of Starmer shaking things up is unlikely to get anyone on here, who are of the softer left, het up in any way. There has been some belated acceptance of anti-Semitism in Labour on here and elsewhere after much denial. You could argue it’s too late, and be critical of those for being such, but it doesn’t change the belated nature of its acceptance once it’s no longer possible to deny, even as the 99% probably continues to do so. So, in summary, if you truly understood the Labour mindset of people on here you’d realise that making comments about how Starmer shaking things up is unlikely to bother the ‘soft left’ because their allegiance is with Labour, not a Corbyn personality cult. The support on here tends to be more towards protecting Labour at any cost, no matter its problems, rather than the ideology of Jeremy Corbyn. And I don’t think this as a positive by the way.
And I wasn’t even blaming you for being unfamiliar, since you are not of the left. I don’t think it says anything negative about you for not understanding this, but of course you react with outrage because Bucks the boff knows everything!
For someone who agrees with much of the Conservative criticism you have an odd way of reacting negatively to anything remotely critical of it. It does create the impression that you want to defend them when all you do is just offer vague criticism and a focus on Labour. If you set out criticism to Labour in other threads, without mentioning it as a tu quoque fallacy, which does nothing to discredit the argument, it’d be fine by me and would get no comment.
I agree that there was scant criticism for his obvious ills before the election. However, you address all of us on here with Labour values constantly. I believe I have made far more critical comments, without the need to “what about Tories?” on Labour than you have ever done on your own side. So, I can rest easy when calling you out on it. I was also sounding the alarm about Corbyn, for his anti-Semitism long before 12 months ago, so again my conscience rests easy. TwoWrights has also criticised Corbyn as useless and made comments that he’s glad he’s gone, which is more than what we get from your “yes, Tories are bad and have racism, but what about Labour?” Once again, regardless of intent, this always comes across as trying to dismiss concerns by having a weak acknowledgement which doesn’t say much.
This is why I rarely redirect to Labour issues on Tory critical threads. I haven’t made many threads, so I don’t start topics myself and this board does have a pro-left slant, which leaves me commenting often on Tory problems. They don’t magically go away if I acknowledge Labour’s problems in the same thread. I do the same on the pro-Labour threads where needed. There haven’t been as many because they’re not in power (so less in focus) and the pro-left slant. However, whenever the 99% has ever made his ridiculous apologia for Corbyn I have criticised and not done a “what about Tories?” because their issues are irrelevant. As such the 99% has accused me of defending Tories. Yet whenever you come on for your monthly vent you accuse all and sundry of being disingenuously pro-Labour. Sorry for blowing my own trumpet, but given I comment on here and you are so vague in your inclusions (and have sometimes referenced arguments I made when making these broad brush statements) of blind Labour support, I assume I am included in that. That I have a strong belief I am not, given my own views on the disastrous direction Labour have been in for too long, makes me react to such nonsense. To borrow one of your trite cliches, I say to that “what a joke!”
Heck, Starmer’s Labour is not immune to criticism. I am not criticising so far because he is doing a very good job at rebuilding Labour as competent and supportable Labour Party once again. He needs to do more and it may not be enough, but after years of naval gazing it is refreshing to have a competent opposition as we have a truly calamitous government. And, no, I am not just saying it because it’s the Tories. For as much as I may dislike her policies, Thatcher was a very competent PM; she would have been more so than Corbyn or Ed Miliband for certain. Johnson isn’t and his cabinet is among the most pathetic bunch of yes men and women to grace their roles.
2020 has finished with a good few months of hope for me. The narcissistic would-be tyrant going from the White House, no matter his bad loser protestations, the anti-Semitic, anti-western conspiracy theorist suspended from Labour and the big brained eyetest driver no longer as government advisor. Oh, and Scunny look like we could have a chance of survival if we play like yesterday. I have had more than one celebratory pint!
” I don’t recall “, is this the new BI buzzline? Funny how he never recalls things that dont fit his agenda, same old same old Bucks. Hilarious if rather sad.
The charge that everyone is always agreeing with each other is way off the mark too. From religion to anti-vax, to views on the Labour Party, there’s a lot of disagreement. I suspect because he can’t see posts descending in to mud slinging he takes that to be ‘all agreeing with each other’? He perhaps doesn’t understand that debate at it’s best is questioning and respectful, if occasionally mocking. Perhaps he has in mind the ‘uncover the corruption’ post? However, given all the evidence against the Tory Party on that one, you’d have to be certified to find some way of disputing the truth.
” I don’t recall “, is this the new BI buzzline? Funny how he never recalls things that dont fit his agenda, same old same old Bucks. Hilarious if rather sad.
Aye, I’ve never ‘known’ anyone so wrong about so much for so long.
Meanwhile, given the circumstances we’re all in, I never imagined it would be so unsatisfying to be proved right – along with about half a dozen other bruers – about Trump, Johnson, Brexit and the Tories.
FAO Bucks if you are still lurking. Here is a Tory’s view on the pathetic and corrupt performance of your Government over the last 11 months.
Read and learn. I think you will find it a lot more insightful than “because I recognise the Conservatives are far from perfect; and what about Corbyn”!!!
They are a long way short of perfect, corrupt lying criminals would be a better description.
This Labour MP fancies some of the dodgy action.
If he has done wrong he should be sacked. 2k from one individual MP compared to dodgy no tender contracts for millions to chums, relatives and party donors.
Let’s have police led fraud investigations of all!!
He shouldn’t be claiming expenses for his defence though.
That’s quite right BRI and it should and can be dealt with quickly if the Labour party chose to, however what’s the chance of the Government dealing with their multi million pound chummy pals deals I wonder? Different scale, same principles should apply though. I’m guessing we shouldn’t be holding our collective breathe on any of this being investigated anytime soon.
“He shouldn’t be claiming expenses for his defence though”.
I did say he should be sacked.
That’s quite right BRI and it should and can be dealt with quickly if the Labour party chose to, however what’s the chance of the Government dealing with their multi million pound chummy pals deals I wonder? Different scale, same principles should apply though. I’m guessing we shouldn’t be holding our collective breathe on any of this being investigated anytime soon.
I’m not making any comment on its comparison in magnitude to Tory deals. It’s not the same scale. I just thought it was relevant somewhat to this thread as a reminder to some ills committed by a Labour MP, having seen the news this morning.
Of course it differs from the Tories, as there is no evidence this expenses claim has anything to do with Starmer, whereas the Tory deals are heavily linked to the cabinet MPs in the party and the PM.
Another corrupt or totally inappropriate payment- £21m with more to follow to a middle man. Didn’t see this reported in the Daily Mail, they are too busy trying to discredit a young black footballer.
It’s time for a public enquiry if the fraud squad aren’t going to investigate!!
Just a strange coincidence that Hancock’s neighbour is now on the payroll.
“Aye, I’ve never ‘known’ anyone so wrong about so much for so long.
“Meanwhile, given the circumstances we’re all in, I never imagined it would be so unsatisfying to be proved right – along with about half a dozen other bruers – about Trump, Johnson, Brexit and the Tories.”
Just fallen off my chair laughing. This from the man who claimed the Tories were finished just a few months before they won a huge majority; and the same “bruers” who can’t accept we’re leaving the EU. Well, we are and thank goodness for that. Never mind the UK, the EU is a real basket case, even Germany.
As for being “proved right”?! I’ve just fallen off my chair again laughing. It hardly needed a genius to see what was going to happen to Trump and while I’m glad to see the back of him Biden isn’t exactly a great alternative. As for Boris, I wouldn’t be quite so hasty. Only a fool would base an opinion on what’s happened in 2020. Starmer is no fool — he can see what needs to be done and getting rid of the extreme left from the Labour party is a good start.
So carry on deluding yourself, Gurny. I’d worry about getting your own house in order before going on so much about others. Except, of course, that’s all you’re capable of doing. You love the intellectual veneer but that’s all it is — a very thin shell with nothing of substance underneath. Scratch the surface and there’s nothing there. Just a lot of venom for anyone who doesn’t agree with your extreme views of the world. No serious debate because you’re incapable of seeing the world in any other way than your own.
That’s all fine by me — I’m very happy for you to think what you do. Long may it continue.
Biden is a far better alternative to Trump for anyone who believes in having sanity in the White House and doesn’t want democracy to be undermined by would-be authoritarians.
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