Iron Bru › Forums › Non Football › Trump
- This topic has 57 replies, 11 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 9 months ago by Siderite.
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April 5, 2023 at 10:55 pm #259075
I don’t think I have made my disdain for conspiratorial and Trumpian thinking a secret. I try to be as measured as possible, but if someone presents me with damaging rhetoric about a cabal or group of any kind out to get someone I am going to argue against it. Like I say, turning a blind eye to corruption allows authoritarianism to ferment. This isn’t the case of a non-believer being punished, as with Stalin, but a legal case against someone for how they allegedly mishandled funds in politics. And it will possibly be more, as IA has said. To frame this as a political purge is not a measured opinion, from my standpoint. There is no other way about it, and I doubt Trump fans would ever accept charges against Trump, frankly no matter how justified. It’s like with Corbyn; anything against them has to be from an elite out to get them. None of it has much basis, but it’s corrosive to democracy to undermine the state based on conspiracies. There’s a reason why hard leftists and rightists use this tactic. OK, you didn’t say nefarious elite, ad verbatim, but it was the gist I got to a degree.
I would also probably say you are not being measured or balanced in this instance if I could type that again. I appreciate people have different views, and elsewhere there has been good debate, but I cannot go against my own interpretation of the discussions here. I cannot view the Nazi analogy to be measured, and there is good reason why Lineker (spelled correctly, I made the effort) got criticised, even if it shouldn’t have meant censorship. Same with you; I am not reporting posts or calling for bans.
I just agree to disagree.
April 6, 2023 at 12:02 am #259079Trump is a charismatic authoritarian bully, an inveterate lying narcissist, with a man-child mentality. He’s totally unfit to lead, but he will and does appeal to those who like far-right politics, populism, and dislike the social changes posed by feminism, lgbtq rights, multiculturalism, etc.
Trump appeals to those who like strong, right-wing leaders who dislike experts, ignore facts, and who like to work on gut feelings backed up by an ability to work a (dim) crowd into a frenzy with tub-thumping preaching/speeches, populist rhetoric and slogans. He’s a sort of Francisco Franco for the 21st century, and his appeal to JL is guaranteed.
In the 20-teens there was a fashion for this kind of leader (see also Johnson and Farage), largely due to austerity and the ways in which people were persuaded to blame immigration and the EU, rather than the right-wing leaders and their lack of economic control.
Had Trump been a man of the left, he’d (rightly) have been crucified by the right-wing media long ago. It’s only down to press bias that Trump, Farage and Johnson have prospered.
Personally, I see a nightmarish orange person with a rat-clown face whose trousers end up around his ankles every time he speaks.
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April 6, 2023 at 12:44 am #259081Hi Gurney. Not so dim. My ‘prediction ‘was quickly fulfilled.
Sidey .. to try one more time. It wasn’t intended specifically as a Nazi analogy. It was a famous quote from a principled man commenting from a totalitarian context ( which in his case happened to be Nazi) on the shortsightedness of ignoring judicial malpractice and bias if it is being applied to those with whom we have no affinity. That was it. I detest the way that the horrors of the Nazi era are invoked for cheap rhetoric as much as you do…… and for good reason.
April 6, 2023 at 1:07 am #259083“Are you really saying that anything goes when dealing with people you don’t like”.
No, you wrote that! I think you’re tieing yourself up on knots with your arguments.
I am saying that if he has broken the law, he should be prosecuted. Quite simple to understand without the need for any smart or convoluted arguments.
April 6, 2023 at 1:15 am #259084Drain the swamp!!
And make sure to rinse everything out.
April 6, 2023 at 8:26 am #259094Drain the swamp, unless it ends up being a Republican being drained, at which point it’s a political purge.
JI – I still think that quote invokes a comparison to the Nazis, which is not fair. Anyway, I don’t think it’s accurate. “First they came for the a person accused of fraudulent behaviour, and I did not speak out, because criminal trials into the allegedly fraudulent happens in any healthy justice system.”
Regardless of it being a Nazi analogy or not, it is comparing someone facing criminal trials to escalation to genocide and I find that to be crass.
April 6, 2023 at 5:36 pm #259150Speaking about the battle for America, the news coming out from Florida of censoring people (from corporations to people who created memes) critical of DeSantis is worrying. It’s not just Trump who’s got an authoritarian mindset in the Republicans. It’s worrying that the next president could be one of these two corrupt and anti-democratic politicians.
The party of Lincoln, the Bull Moose and Eisenhower is far gone.
April 6, 2023 at 6:01 pm #259152They have been massively short on constructive policy ideas for a long long time and some political commentators say it can be traced back to Reagan. When it comes to conspiracy theories and culture wars they are the masters in both those but the Republican Party is a complete shadow of its former self, I feel sorry for the American public being pushed from pillar to post with this constant crap from the American political right, such a sad reflection on a major country which can assert such power on the world stage.
April 7, 2023 at 10:04 am #259209Very true IA – nobody on the political right now talks about the ‘unacceptable face of capitalism’. That’s because the Tories and Republicans have repositioned themselves as far-right parties where the rules don’t matter and anything goes. There’s been a total collapse in controls for corruption, malfeasance, and truth-telling. Awfulness has become normalised on bothe sides of the Atlantic.
In fact, if it weren’t for its obscene wealth, you could almost classify the US as a 3rd world country, with its stupid guns, loathsome churches, unbridled capitalism in league with right-wing media, and the consequent extensive poverty, social division and violent crime.
Meanwhile, the right talks about too much political correctness! Too many rights for this, rights for that, and how it’s all wrong. They said the same when slavery was abolished and again with civil rights.
Fact is, that a society as violent, misogynist, racist and unequal as America clearly doesn’t have enough PC. And those who ignore or deny it, are complicit in it. They keep it going, and ensure it won’t change. Quite how the political right and their conscience manage this really does beggar belief – whether Christian, Atheist or Jedi!
Oh, and in sum, very dim Les.
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April 7, 2023 at 11:15 am #259224One worrying aspect is the support for Putin from the far right of conservative political parties, not so much here but certainly in America and other countries. Very similar to their support for Hitler pre war. Of course there was even support for Hitler here pre war.
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April 7, 2023 at 11:19 am #259227I dread to think what will happen to Ukraine if the Republicans win in 2024.
April 7, 2023 at 4:31 pm #259266Siderite : April 4th at 4.02pm wrote
Joe Biden,who can put together more articulate talk than Trump.
Can I ask Siderite ,were you serious?April 7, 2023 at 4:51 pm #259272Given that Trump’s moronic speeches are some of the worst I can think of, yes.
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April 7, 2023 at 5:24 pm #259283“Joe Biden,who can put together more articulate talk than Trump.
Can I ask Siderite ,were you serious?”Build a wall!!!
Drain the swamp!!!
Jail her!!
Make America great again!!!
We won!!
Repeat, repeat, repeat.Simple chants for simple people.
April 7, 2023 at 6:17 pm #259301Don’t forget he’s often referred to his own media platform, Truth Social 😂😂😂 as Troth Central. Complete and utter plank who don’t forget halved the value of the $4 billion business empire left to him by his father, because he is such a colossus in the world of business.
April 8, 2023 at 8:48 am #259370One worrying aspect is the support for Putin from the far right of conservative political parties, not so much here but certainly in America and other countries. Very similar to their support for Hitler pre war. Of course there was even support for Hitler here pre war.
don’t be ridiculous, do you know how many died in that war,?
April 8, 2023 at 9:29 am #259377One worrying aspect is the support for Putin from the far right of conservative political parties, not so much here but certainly in America and other countries. Very similar to their support for Hitler pre war. Of course there was even support for Hitler here pre war.
don’t be ridiculous, do you know how many died in that war,?
It’s fact, I would go as far as to say that members of the royal family admired Hitler in the 30s, also fact.
April 8, 2023 at 12:08 pm #259417One worrying aspect is the support for Putin from the far right of conservative political parties, not so much here but certainly in America and other countries. Very similar to their support for Hitler pre war. Of course there was even support for Hitler here pre war.
don’t be ridiculous, do you know how many died in that war,?
I fail to see how the death toll contradicts IA’s point. There are many right wingers in the US who do support Putin, and many supported Hitler at the time. We all like to think we’d stand against tyranny, but many have their excuses for not opposing Russia.
April 8, 2023 at 12:30 pm #259420Neither do I but somethought it relevant when Lineker mentioned pre war Germany
April 8, 2023 at 5:47 pm #259466I dread to think what will happen to Ukraine if the Republicans win in 2024.
I think you and I both know,US and UK arms firm lobbies will ensure continued support,they don’t do it for free
April 8, 2023 at 6:33 pm #259473April 8, 2023 at 6:34 pm #259474I dread to think what will happen to Ukraine if the Republicans win in 2024.
I think you and I both know,US and UK arms firm lobbies will ensure continued support,they don’t do it for free
Ha, because that has worked with Hungary. I also like the implicit horror at arms dealers lobbying to what would be a good outcome given the situation. Though I am sure your vision of the left, which is all about kindness, involves the kindness of having Ukrainians at the mercy of death and destruction from Russia.
April 8, 2023 at 7:28 pm #259478I never said anything of the sort, how righteous of you,as usual.Except when it’s a state you love displacing muslims ,I guess it’s right in centre right pushing ahead
April 8, 2023 at 7:45 pm #259481I don’t support a state attacking Muslims, I am just not blind to the nature of Hamas and those who apologise for such. There is plenty to criticise about Israel, but many take it beyond criticism to conspiracies, hyperbole and Jew hate.
I apologise for overinterpretation; I read it in a tone where arms supply to Ukraine is bad.
April 8, 2023 at 7:53 pm #259484I reckon forcing people out of their homes is reason enough to fight back don’t you? Would you turn to a British Hamas if that happened to you? After all we’re supporting Ukraine against a hostile state tasking over their home
It’s not anti Jew to be anti stealing homes, many fine Israelis are against the the tweely named “settlements” as are millions of jews around the world. Labour friends of Israel are wrong uns that’s for sureApril 8, 2023 at 8:15 pm #259486If you think anti-Semitism is purely a reaction to Israel then I have a bridge to sell. Israelis would say their actions are a reaction to Hamas, whose beliefs are to wipe Jews from Israel.
April 9, 2023 at 6:52 am #259507Interesting , where did I say it’s purely a reaction to Israel? Hamas might say they exist because Israel is stealing homes from Muslim people based on religion alone , they’d certainly have less support if Israel wasn’t a rogue state breaking UN declarations and still stealing people’s homes in a racist manner.
April 9, 2023 at 9:27 am #259514You implied that Palestinians understandably turn to Hamas due to Israeli action. I was countering that with the supposition that Israelis would take a hardline stance against Hamas in a similar manner, so this can’t really be used as an excuse. It just continues the cycle of violence.
Israel has a lot of problems, especially right now with Netanyahu (solidarity with the protests), but the idea that Hamas crimes can be excused as a reaction to Israel is nonsense, as is Israel as an apartheid rogue state. Palestinians have fewer voting rights in Gaza than Israel. Hamas rules with an iron grip and imprison dissidents; they torture them too. They control women and kill gays. This would still happen if Israel didn’t exist.
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