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Aye and yet there were still some Republican senators last night saying that people are responsible for their own actions and it had nothing to do with the President. You keep poking a hornets nest and shit happens, at least Twitter have suspended his account and deleted a load of the idiots rhetoric. A lesson for all, if they are prepared to learn of course.
There are probably still posters around here who think he’s great. Kitchener will be one. His best buddy Farridge told him so. There are doubtless plenty of other hypocrites and racists who hide behind allusions of ‘anti Marxism’ and ‘black people are drug addicts’ to undermine democracy and equality who wouldn’t condone what was essentially a violent coup attempt, barely stifled by the US police compared to their disgrace during BLM protests.
So far arrests made at BLM protests in US number around 10,000.
Arrests made in Washington yesterday = 52!
Four dead. Will Trump be held responsible – doubt it!
Trump, a synonym for f?rt
Merriam Webster, an American dictionary which the esteemed Donald is probably incapable of reading, suggests the following definitions:
1 often vulgar : an expulsion of intestinal gas
2 often vulgar : a foolish or contemptible person
How appropriate!All this crap about the election result has been created by Trump for an ulterior motive – money raising to deal with his debts and legal challenges ahead!! $200 million and counting.
Aye and yet there were still some Republican senators last night saying that people are responsible for their own actions and it had nothing to do with the President. You keep poking a hornets nest and shit happens, at least Twitter have suspended his account and deleted a load of the idiots rhetoric. A lesson for all, if they are prepared to learn of course.
In Trump’s case I think he went a bit further than just poking a hornet’s nest, he actively encouraged them with his “see you on the 6th” tweet and other things. Even now he is clearly on their side, as his little video and thank-you to them showed, no matter his weak urges for peace say. I don’t believe he’d be so thankful to them if his concerns over this were genuine.
Hopefully yesterday will be the shock needed for many as to the danger Trump represents. For too long have we had urges to be cautious and treatment of any concern about his behaviour as being hysterical. We have been told he is just unconventional because he’s not a politician by background. This despite his evident authoritarian tendencies and continuous disregard for democratic norms throughout his presidency. To give Trump his due, he means his insane ramblings when he says them, and he showed his sincerity yesterday in urging them on and giving them enough clues to show he’s on their side. And let’s not beat around the bush here, what happened yesterday was a riot directed by those who cannot accept they lost.
For years we have had claims of how the liberals can’t take losing, with inferences and often arguments that conservatives can, because they respect democracy and the will of the people. Well, those takes have aged like milk, and no this is not a reaction to liberal behaviour. The seeds of this date back many years and could be seen with the Tea Party movement when Obama came in. It only seems like such because the media have been too cowardly to hold Trump to account through fear that it would disgruntle his base and a right wing which has been blind to its own faults. The big difference between the anti-Trump protests, BLM and this is that the two former never marched to stop democratic processes, and this is the key which should be remembered here. Did the former degrade into violence? Often it did, but none was an attempt to stop democracy; yesterday’s was a clear attempt to stop Biden being formally declared as victor, and that is what is shameful, besides everything else. Does this make anti-Trump or BLM violence right? No, but it doesn’t make them as threatening to democracy as the far-right, as demonstrated yesterday.
There’s nowhere to hide now for the apologists and excuse makers who have spent the previous four years saying how “ANTIFA” or BLM were the real problem democracy faces. Yesterday was the first meaningful attempt to stop a democratic decision and it didn’t come from the left. As silly as they may have been, the Trump protesters did nothing to stop the hand over of power to him in 2016, and they weren’t affiliated or supported by Obama or the Democrats. Trump made it clear he was on their side, and has done for years.
For years liberals have been urged to understand the Trump voters and be more critical of damaging elements on the left. There was always a section who would treat all criticism of Trump to pour scorn on those making it for failing to understand why people voted Trump, with urges to understand them and damn the worst elements of their own side instead for losing. Well, that argument has been obliterated, as Trump’s worst elements have caused him to lose after one term, and lose the Senate. After urging us to listen to Trump fans after Clinton’s defeat, do the same contrarians make the same proposal to conservatives for why Trump lost? Do they heck! Liberals are still told to listen to Trump fans and condemn the worst elements of their own side which alienate them, not the other way round, despite victory.
Now, I am sympathetic to trying to understand others for being supportive of a bad cause, but it works both ways. The contrarians treat it as if Trump voters have no agency and cannot be blamed for poor decisions, whereas liberals need to be flexible with their condemnations, and never the other way round. A conservative calling a liberal a ‘libtard’ is treated as someone who needs respect and understanding. A liberal calling a conservative a ‘deplorable’ must immediately look at themselves in the mirror, regardless.
Well, we now see the fruits of that. Years of no accountability, criticism or holding to account from the media, politicians or anyone on Trump’s support has seen a section of his base think it is acceptable to storm the Capitol because they didn’t get the result they wanted. In part allowable, because large sections of the American public have been able to get themselves embroiled in a fanatical movement, because criticism of such is deemed elitist. Of course there are many cases of snobbery towards Trump voters, this cannot be ignored and should be avoided. However, the same people calling this out, on the right, often lump any criticism of the anointed “salt of the Earth” Trump voter as elitism. They are beyond criticism, no matter who they are. Yesterday has shown the nature of many and the apologia for them and how this has allowed an emboldened bunch of thugs threaten democracy. All because the right cannot do what it demands the left to do and engage with its worst elements, and this is because they are scared of being associated with such. The unfortunate thing, of course, is that no-one being charitable or decent could blame these people if they had called out the worst elements, but by apologising for them they have shown them to be part of the problem.
It’s not that they don’t have any point with regards to the left. The left isn’t perfect by any stretch. The goons who call themselves ‘ANTIFA’ are thuggish themselves and things like ‘cancel culture’ do show a disregard for freedom of speech, when it actually is such. However, these people are not as intricately linked to the Democrats as the morons are yesterday to the Republicans, thanks to the pandering and praises by Trump himself. In fact, if anyone who thinks they are spends some time with them you’d see how they hate Biden, Pelosi and other mainstream Democrats, and always have done.
I have absolutely no time for the “Biden is only marginally or no better” than Trump takes, and yesterday shows precisely why. This clown show, which has caused many conservatives to hoodwink themselves into saying the other side would be just as bad to save face, would not have happened under the Democrats. Unlike the Republicans, the Democrats are a party committed to democratic norms, despite their many faults. They would respect expertise, leading to a much more competent pandemic management, and they wouldn’t engage in bogus attempts to overthrow democracy on nonsense rigging claims, and the Russia claims do not come close to being an equivalence. Russia claims were admitted to be a worry by the American secret services and the Mueller report did confirm their existence. All this nonsense about vote rigging now is backed by no-one except politicians and their fans. Big difference. Plus, I really don’t see Biden calling for an insurrection. His whole tone has been conciliatory, which is a far cry from Trump’s tyrannical behaviour.
Before the usual suspects come on and infer this is a bitter rant by someone left leaning out to demonise conservatives, it really isn’t. I have a care about internationalism and desire to see liberal democracy flourish. I have a loathing of leftist autocracies like Venezuela and Cuba, and have no fond thoughts of the Soviet Union or China under Mao (or now, though its leftism has certainly been diluted today). There are those on the left who are too forgiving of these places, but none of these are leading Labour or the Democrats at present, and anyone who thinks so are the ones who need to check themselves for losing the plot. Corbyn was, but he is no longer Labour leader. The problem now is that right wing authoritarianism is on the rise. We see it in Poland and Hungary too. Russia is heavily conservative and a dictatorship. The USA’s democracy is heavily dented by Trump now. This is a problem of the right, and one it needs to confront, as much as the left needed to confront the rise of Corbyn in Labour. Though, the latter is not leader any more and the left are not leading these countries where authoritarianism has risen. The right too needs to look at itself in the mirror. There are plenty who do, but all too many just want to look the other way and wag fingers at the left, because it’s easier. This does nothing to solve the situation. Let’s not be politically correct here. A large proportion of the USA have no trust in democracy, because they think their whims should be catered to; it hasn’t gone their way, so they assume rigged elections. The height of the stupidity came to a head yesterday when many stormed the Capitol to stall democracy and many others on social media declared these were crisis actors and it was all a hoax by ‘ANTIFA’ to discredit Trump fans and ensure Biden wins. This is not a healthy place for a democracy to be in, and an intransigent public shows the tendency towards authoritarianism. Rather than being a beacon for democracy around the world, the USA has more of a resemblance to the Weimar Republic. Scary times await and I hope something can be done to break this nonsense which has taken root in the USA.
For those who doubt the importance of this, I urge them to read Anne Applebaum’s fantastic piece below, detailing the sadness at recent events and importance of the USA as a democracy:
Oh, and Anne is a conservative and critic of communism, showing that hard hitting disgust at Trump isn’t purely because of liberals wanting to demonise conservatism. Just because some on the left would criticise the right, regardless, it doesn’t mean all critique is inherently driven by a hatred of the other side.
Let’s not underestimate the role social media has played in this sorry mess across the pond with 80 million followers slavishly believing every corrupt and hate filled message coming from Trump over many years. People who start out astonished and shocked by Trump are indoctrinated over a period of years that all this shit he utters has some foundation and with the liberal and right wing media news outlets in America stoking opposite fires, is there any wonder this type of crap has gone down. Our social media and news reporting networks, particularly in the USA have a lot to answer for in helping create the monster that is Trump.
Too true.
Social media is many things, but in this case it has served to legitimize and intellectualise what is, at its heart, base, bog standard, disgusting racism.
It opens up a space for similar ideas to promulgate, through Breitbart, through people like Alex Jones, through the kind of sites we’ve seen mentioned on here, and through campaigns cleverly waged by a handful of people which make themselves appear like a whole army spread across the web.
And anyone who objects is accused of ‘cancel culture’, snowflakism, etc.
How long before someone says ‘Say what you like about the Third Reich, at least you could speak your mind.’ ??
There are probably still posters around here who think he’s great. Kitchener will be one. His best buddy Farridge told him so. There are doubtless plenty of other hypocrites and racists who hide behind allusions of ‘anti Marxism’ and ‘black people are drug addicts’ to undermine democracy and equality who wouldn’t condone what was essentially a violent coup attempt, barely stifled by the US police compared to their disgrace during BLM protests.
You are right in saying that I do believe that both Farage and Trump are the best people to influence 21st century politics.
Biden will be a puppet president who will no doubt take the US and it’s expendable allies into another pointless Middle Eastern war.
At least Trump used diplomacy, ok sometimes a little forceful, but there was no war on his watch.
There’s been little appetite for war since Iraq, and certainly not among Democrats.
Trump’s diplomacy often amounted to others remarking on what an idiot he is.
Can you imagine how a Trump second term may have played out? During his four years he has attacked and praised several groups of people as well as politicians, praising mainly right wing groups, some milita and attacking muslims, BLM and virtually anyone with a different viewpoint other then his. He has spread lies on social media and attacked women with slurs on their character and plenty of sexual innuendo, verbally attacked respected Americans heroes like the late Johm McCain and generally abused a host of others be they Americans or foreigners. He has attemted to corrupt and undermine the American electoral system through appointing people to undermine postal ballots and spreading lies about illegal voting and when ballot counting should be stopped or started as he saw fit. He has lost every lawsuit he invented on this issue, thank goodness and even the SCOTUS, a body he overstocked with Republican leaning judges to supposedly give him a legal advantage denied him a hearing because of bogus lawsuits and no claim to answer. A second term would have given him the platform to go after the people he sees as enemies even stronger and how long before bogus charges would have been ” Trumped up ” resulting in jail terms or public humiliation as he saw fit. Backed by his rabble army of twitter followers he would no doubt have incited more violence against certain groups, we have seen examples and yesterdays episode was IMO a sign of things to come had he got back into the White House. Remember Hitler began by verbally attacking groups of people he saw as not fit to be a part of his German dream, Jews and Gypsies being just two of the major groups he attacked. Over a period of around 9 years he cranked up the rhetoric and propaganda throgh newspaper headlines and newsreels to at first have these groups hounded out of their businesses and homes, forced to live in squalid ghettos, seperated from other family members and finally deported in trains to death camps to be beaten, butchered, gassed and cremated. Maybe the scenario I paint sounds rather melodramatic to some but for me this is how dictatorships start and I just hope America can begin to heal itself and pull back from the brink of anarchy which appears to threaten it now. Trump IMO should be pursued out of office throgh the proper channels of the law, his actions should be gone over in a detailed way, including his personal finances and business dealings and the full weight of the law brought against him. Hope this wasn’t longer then BRI’s post, sorry if it was.
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You are right in saying that I do believe that both Farage and Trump are the best people to influence 21st century politics.Serious question LK, what evidence makes you think this? What facts or knowledge are you basing your opinion on?
For one thing, Trump has achieved sod all, apart from tax cuts for the rich, in domestic policy.
Hope this wasn’t longer then BRI’s post, sorry if it was.
I could always do well with a challenger!
I think that’s a pretty fair analogy of where a second Trump term could lead I-A. We’re supposed to be learning from the past to prevent that sort of thing happening again, not using it as a user manual. There’s a lot more needs to be done to counter and question influencers and supposed philosophers who feed Trumpism and populist thinking if this is not to happen again. Trump’s just the figurehead, the symbol. It’s the duplicitous extreme right wing influencers masquerading as free speech warriors that need addressing. Those that deliver to arseholes exactly the ammunition they need.
Good round up of the situation regarding ‘understanding Trump voters’ BRI. Personally, I’ve either not trusted (suspected right wing libertarians) or agreed with (known left wing liberals) those who tell me I need to understand their concerns. It comes down to rights and responsibilities. I’m not prepared to entertain a redneck banging on about freedom of speech when their primary motive is to undermine democracy and equality. They can f*** right off.
I have no interest whatsoever in understanding why someone like Kitchener thinks the likes of Trump and Farridge are the best people to be world leaders. No interest in attempting to debate with posters like J Charles and awaywego who can barely string a sentence together and who struggle to understand much beyond ‘the cat sat on the mat’. And no time for conspiracy theorists like Alcy who, whether he realises or not help to underpin exactly what the US have just got rid of.
In Trump’s case I think he went a bit further than just poking a hornet’s nest, he actively encouraged them with his “see you on the 6th” tweet and other things. Even now he is clearly on their side, as his little video and thank-you to them showed, no matter his weak urges for peace say. I don’t believe he’d be so thankful to them if his concerns over this were genuine.
Hopefully yesterday will be the shock needed for many as to the danger Trump represents. For too long have we had urges to be cautious and treatment of any concern about his behaviour as being hysterical. We have been told he is just unconventional because he’s not a politician by background. This despite his evident authoritarian tendencies and continuous disregard for democratic norms throughout his presidency. To give Trump his due, he means his insane ramblings when he says them, and he showed his sincerity yesterday in urging them on and giving them enough clues to show he’s on their side. And let’s not beat around the bush here, what happened yesterday was a riot directed by those who cannot accept they lost.
For years we have had claims of how the liberals can’t take losing, with inferences and often arguments that conservatives can, because they respect democracy and the will of the people. Well, those takes have aged like milk, and no this is not a reaction to liberal behaviour. The seeds of this date back many years and could be seen with the Tea Party movement when Obama came in. It only seems like such because the media have been too cowardly to hold Trump to account through fear that it would disgruntle his base and a right wing which has been blind to its own faults. The big difference between the anti-Trump protests, BLM and this is that the two former never marched to stop democratic processes, and this is the key which should be remembered here. Did the former degrade into violence? Often it did, but none was an attempt to stop democracy; yesterday’s was a clear attempt to stop Biden being formally declared as victor, and that is what is shameful, besides everything else. Does this make anti-Trump or BLM violence right? No, but it doesn’t make them as threatening to democracy as the far-right, as demonstrated yesterday.
There’s nowhere to hide now for the apologists and excuse makers who have spent the previous four years saying how “ANTIFA” or BLM were the real problem democracy faces. Yesterday was the first meaningful attempt to stop a democratic decision and it didn’t come from the left. As silly as they may have been, the Trump protesters did nothing to stop the hand over of power to him in 2016, and they weren’t affiliated or supported by Obama or the Democrats. Trump made it clear he was on their side, and has done for years.
For years liberals have been urged to understand the Trump voters and be more critical of damaging elements on the left. There was always a section who would treat all criticism of Trump to pour scorn on those making it for failing to understand why people voted Trump, with urges to understand them and damn the worst elements of their own side instead for losing. Well, that argument has been obliterated, as Trump’s worst elements have caused him to lose after one term, and lose the Senate. After urging us to listen to Trump fans after Clinton’s defeat, do the same contrarians make the same proposal to conservatives for why Trump lost? Do they heck! Liberals are still told to listen to Trump fans and condemn the worst elements of their own side which alienate them, not the other way round, despite victory.
Now, I am sympathetic to trying to understand others for being supportive of a bad cause, but it works both ways. The contrarians treat it as if Trump voters have no agency and cannot be blamed for poor decisions, whereas liberals need to be flexible with their condemnations, and never the other way round. A conservative calling a liberal a ‘libtard’ is treated as someone who needs respect and understanding. A liberal calling a conservative a ‘deplorable’ must immediately look at themselves in the mirror, regardless.
Well, we now see the fruits of that. Years of no accountability, criticism or holding to account from the media, politicians or anyone on Trump’s support has seen a section of his base think it is acceptable to storm the Capitol because they didn’t get the result they wanted. In part allowable, because large sections of the American public have been able to get themselves embroiled in a fanatical movement, because criticism of such is deemed elitist. Of course there are many cases of snobbery towards Trump voters, this cannot be ignored and should be avoided. However, the same people calling this out, on the right, often lump any criticism of the anointed “salt of the Earth” Trump voter as elitism. They are beyond criticism, no matter who they are. Yesterday has shown the nature of many and the apologia for them and how this has allowed an emboldened bunch of thugs threaten democracy. All because the right cannot do what it demands the left to do and engage with its worst elements, and this is because they are scared of being associated with such. The unfortunate thing, of course, is that no-one being charitable or decent could blame these people if they had called out the worst elements, but by apologising for them they have shown them to be part of the problem.
It’s not that they don’t have any point with regards to the left. The left isn’t perfect by any stretch. The goons who call themselves ‘ANTIFA’ are thuggish themselves and things like ‘cancel culture’ do show a disregard for freedom of speech, when it actually is such. However, these people are not as intricately linked to the Democrats as the morons are yesterday to the Republicans, thanks to the pandering and praises by Trump himself. In fact, if anyone who thinks they are spends some time with them you’d see how they hate Biden, Pelosi and other mainstream Democrats, and always have done.
I have absolutely no time for the “Biden is only marginally or no better” than Trump takes, and yesterday shows precisely why. This clown show, which has caused many conservatives to hoodwink themselves into saying the other side would be just as bad to save face, would not have happened under the Democrats. Unlike the Republicans, the Democrats are a party committed to democratic norms, despite their many faults. They would respect expertise, leading to a much more competent pandemic management, and they wouldn’t engage in bogus attempts to overthrow democracy on nonsense rigging claims, and the Russia claims do not come close to being an equivalence. Russia claims were admitted to be a worry by the American secret services and the Mueller report did confirm their existence. All this nonsense about vote rigging now is backed by no-one except politicians and their fans. Big difference. Plus, I really don’t see Biden calling for an insurrection. His whole tone has been conciliatory, which is a far cry from Trump’s tyrannical behaviour.
Before the usual suspects come on and infer this is a bitter rant by someone left leaning out to demonise conservatives, it really isn’t. I have a care about internationalism and desire to see liberal democracy flourish. I have a loathing of leftist autocracies like Venezuela and Cuba, and have no fond thoughts of the Soviet Union or China under Mao (or now, though its leftism has certainly been diluted today). There are those on the left who are too forgiving of these places, but none of these are leading Labour or the Democrats at present, and anyone who thinks so are the ones who need to check themselves for losing the plot. Corbyn was, but he is no longer Labour leader. The problem now is that right wing authoritarianism is on the rise. We see it in Poland and Hungary too. Russia is heavily conservative and a dictatorship. The USA’s democracy is heavily dented by Trump now. This is a problem of the right, and one it needs to confront, as much as the left needed to confront the rise of Corbyn in Labour. Though, the latter is not leader any more and the left are not leading these countries where authoritarianism has risen. The right too needs to look at itself in the mirror. There are plenty who do, but all too many just want to look the other way and wag fingers at the left, because it’s easier. This does nothing to solve the situation. Let’s not be politically correct here. A large proportion of the USA have no trust in democracy, because they think their whims should be catered to; it hasn’t gone their way, so they assume rigged elections. The height of the stupidity came to a head yesterday when many stormed the Capitol to stall democracy and many others on social media declared these were crisis actors and it was all a hoax by ‘ANTIFA’ to discredit Trump fans and ensure Biden wins. This is not a healthy place for a democracy to be in, and an intransigent public shows the tendency towards authoritarianism. Rather than being a beacon for democracy around the world, the USA has more of a resemblance to the Weimar Republic. Scary times await and I hope something can be done to break this nonsense which has taken root in the USA.
For those who doubt the importance of this, I urge them to read Anne Applebaum’s fantastic piece below, detailing the sadness at recent events and importance of the USA as a democracy:
Oh, and Anne is a conservative and critic of communism, showing that hard hitting disgust at Trump isn’t purely because of liberals wanting to demonise conservatism. Just because some on the left would criticise the right, regardless, it doesn’t mean all critique is inherently driven by a hatred of the other side.
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BRI, many thanks for posting the abridged version! 😋
The prolixity of some of the contributers to this thread makes reading them tedious. Their entries, while well argued, coud be halved in length. The dismiisive comments about other contributors (Cat sat on the mat and string a sentence together) reek of arrogance.
I’m not being arrogant just saying what I believe. If you don’t like it, tough. Life’s too short to be pandering to idiots and these posters have demonstrated as much.
DeereyMe: I think we do need to understand them. We need to understand where the concerns lie, so we can have the best chance of winning elections. I feel that arguments for such seem to take it to mean for everyone, because while there may be swayable people who vote Trump, I don’t think their actions, such as yesterday’s should be apologised for or excused as acceptable. Also, it is too often one way and we never hear how they should understand liberals.
TW: That’s just a taster. The 700 page long book is coming out in the spring!
I’ll beg to differ with you then BRI. Swayable voters won’t vote for decency unless they’re decent people, whether they’re understood by left leaning liberals or not. An opinion I’ve held for a while and I see no reason to change it.
I was hoping LK would reveal his motivations.
What many supporters of Trump and Farage seem to share is a desire to return to the days when it was ok to be publicly and unapologetically racist. Cancel culture, PC, ‘woke-ism’, BLM… they are basically all about saying ‘don’t be racist’, which makes them the current enemy.
Farage and Trump are masters at stoking it, at giving people a green light to be gross and indecent. They share a strategy of lying, lying and lying again, in order to get their message across. And from this board to the White House, via Downing Street, we see people willing to believe in total, absolute and utter nonsense.
How and why this has come about is discussed on other threads. But, it’s yet another example of how politics comes close to religion, and how some folk are prone to fanatically believing in the totally crackpot ideas of one or both, without any proof at all.
In consequence, the USA, once a totem of Christian values, of peace and tolerance, has now become petri dish of fascism.
Peace and tolerance? The US? One of your better gags Gurn!
But that’s largely how it was seen from abroad (wrongly – agreed), how it was respected, admired, worshipped and envied. It was totemic for many countries, but that’s no longer the case. A bit like the UK, in fact.
Not forgetting Roy Rogers… America got them started young.
Backed by social media demographic targeting and right wing disciples/opportunists he has created a mass movement that will not be going anywhere. A large group of Republican senators still voted last night not to approve Biden as President.
There will he plenty of willing potential leaders waiting to step in to take forward “Trumpism” in 4 years time. Build up support amongst a mass of people, vilify the enemy – the swamp, New Yorkers and Californians, the liberals, BLM (all Blacks) and create a major grievance (the stolen election).
Hard to see how this will get anything but worse. Tolerance and understanding are no longer valued. You are either with us or against us. Germany 1933-1939, it’s been done before.
Aye, good piece on it here, if you can access it, and how the new fascism is dressed up differently, but at heart it’s the same as 1930s Germany.
How long before we hear “The storming of the Capitol? It never happened, it never happened, right? It’s all fake news spread by the BBC, the woke, the Gestapo of Brussels and the Evil Empire of the EU!!”
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