They won’t will they?

[Just Iron]

I’m taking a ‘Bru Sabbatical’ for a while for personal reasons ..but this Israel situation is far from over and the gravitational pull towards Israel being as culpable as the maniacs will take its inevitable course. Fight the good fight Sidey. With you in spirit.

[Siderite]

I will try not to get sucked in now. I don’t want to risk it becoming more hostile. I have given my opinion and think it has been mostly a good debate. I can understand why it can cause tension, and there are no easy answers. I think the charge of genocide is far too extreme for reasons given.

That said, for anyone more pro-Israeli, it must be remembered that Palestinians aren’t defined by Hamas. There has been a timidness from some quarters of the media in labeling what happened as terrorism or as a pogrom and many activists have sickeningly glorified in Hamas’s actions, including those spearheading such protests. However, stuff like this from Richard Madeley is bang out of order:

Richard Madeley asks British Palestinian MP Layla Moran if she or her family knew about Hamas's attack before it happened #GMB pic.twitter.com/guUptvdlGk

— Saul Staniforth (@SaulStaniforth) October 17, 2023

Whatever the answer is, treating Palestinians as inherently evil is wrong.

All the best in your personal situation, JI.

2 users thanked author for this post.

TwoWrights, Just Iron

[64]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/richard-madeley-asks-british-palestinian-mp-if-her-or-her-family-knew-about-hamas-attack-before-it-happened/ar-AA1il7Pf?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=e415b084252945c8b6eab2a673eec146&ei=11
your willingness to demonise Muslim people is pretty awful

[Siderite]

Calling out Hamas for their vicious crimes, as well as those who support them, is hardly demonising Muslims. I have already condemned Madeley’s stupid comments, as I do those who killed the Muslim in Chicago. No-one here actually thinks what’s happening is good or ideal. Criticising jihadists and their apologists is not demonising Muslims, because this isn’t aimed at all Muslims.

1 user thanked author for this post.

TwoWrights

[64]

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/world/what-happened-at-the-great-march-of-return-in-2018-when-palestinians-tried-a-peaceful-protest/ar-AA1hYkJ1

[64]

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/world/what-happened-at-the-great-march-of-return-in-2018-when-palestinians-tried-a-peaceful-protest/ar-AA1hYkJ1

[Siderite]

A bit old news that, and seems to be the usual mix of ‘peaceful protesters’ bringing molotov cocktails and incendiary reaction fro, Israeli soldiers seen.

[Iron-awe]

Two wrongs don’t make a right and despite the initial response from Hamas towards Israelis 10 tens ago being abhorrent, the account posted by Fansy from 2018 makes grim reading. If peaceful protest meets such a vicious unproportionate response then what hope is there. Time fades things from memory and the denial that the period from 1917 to 1948 wasn’t handled correctly is still the undermining factor as to why we are here today discussing this human tragedy IMO.

[Siderite]

I could say the forceful persecution of Jews in other countries and aggression in 1947 could also help in bringing this to today.

People keep saying things like two wrongs don’t make a right, but I am yet to see what Israel should do. Nothing? Leave the hostages to suffer? How do you avoid civilian casualties in urban warfare? Israel have specifically stated that their primary aim is to release the hostages, so where are the calls for this to happen and then use that as leverage against any military continuation? No-one seems to make it, which is why many say there is no acknowledgement of what triggered this. Now we have Antony Blinken announcing that the US and Israel have agreed aid corridors for Gaza, which is very odd for a case of apparent genocide, it must be said. Of course there is much able to be critiqued, but the idea that Israel is equivalent to a bunch of genocidal thugs is out there. Like I have said, if people didn’t want war, maybe Hamas and its vocal supporters shouldn’t have been chomping at the bit for it.

To me, the Palestinian activists won’t do this because many just don’t consider it from the other angle or, worse, don’t care. As can be seen with the many disgusting chants to kill Jews, celebrating dead Jews, associations with paragliders after they killed civilians in a brutal pogrom. Speakers made these comments, so they can’t use the excuse of it being some non-entities. The problem now is that any moral standpoint of the Palestinian cause from the hardened activists is laughable.

There will never be improvement for Palestinians so long as Hamas have control. Their genocidal desires have not been a secret (they make it clear in their charter), even if some have ignored them, and Israel won’t and shouldn’t have to accept having to live near those who want their citizens killed.

[Iron-awe]

The fact Israel encroached on other territory in the region early on post 1948 through force of arms without official sanction was the point I refer to Siderite, the Brits basically left them too it, but like India when Mountbatten washed his hands of all responsibilities and said to India and Pakistan” I’m off home it’s your problem now not ours “. I think the link here is powerful Western nations muting an idea, giving it their blessing then running away when problems arise but supporting the country their original idea favoured. There is no doubt that without Western backing since 1948, Israel would be nowhere the powerful well armed forces it is today. Would Israel have been overrun without Western backing?, very probably, can Israel unleash massive desolation in the region if it so chooses?, most definitely. Although never publicly acknowledging it, Israel is widely believed to own nuclear weapons, which again could be a worry overtime in such a volatile environment.

[Siderite]

Israel encroached on territory after aggression from others. Whether this was right is debatable, but I am struggling to see why it’s so horrible and beyond the pale compared to other nations that have done similar (including in Europe after both world wars. There is less bellyaching from Poland about losing a lot to what is now Ukraine. Same with Finland towards Karelia as part of Russia. Any arguments over this are far less heated). Given the hostility towards Israel and Jews from some, is it to be blamed to want to defend itself? The position of resistance has brought nothing but misery. Surely there’s another way for Palestinians to go about this, because Israel does not and should not go away.

[64]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-middle-east-67121800
Let’s hope these hostages were spared by the hostage releasing bombs dropped here

[Deereyme66]

Interesting read:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/17/left-on-the-shelf-how-the-world-failed-miserably-in-the-middle-east?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

2 users thanked author for this post.

Iron-awe, Siderite

[Iron-awe]

Great article, they began failing in 1917.

[Heath]

“The targets have been aimed at important installations”.

Yeah right.

[Siderite]

Aye, clearly they evacuated people to bomb (planned) empty buildings of innocent civilians for no reason. Meanwhile Hamas have been launching 6000 missiles since October 7 at cities and towns with no discrimination, yet not a peep from many.

[Heath]

Very surprised that you are defending this. Suppose they should just continue to bomb the crap out of each other till there is nothing left. Is that the plan?

[Siderite]

As I have said before, what should Israel do given Hamas has taken hostages? Doing nothing is unpalatable, Hamas won’t entertain diplomacy without massive concessions and how long does it take? Urban warfare is brutal, but there have been attempts to get people to evacuate. Whether this is enough is debatable, but the idea that this is genocidal is off.

The act of war was started with the pogrom. I do not know what the answer is to be honest, I do not know if this is the right solution, and fear what might happen and don’t want things to worsen. However, I don’t see how Israel can’t respond somehow. When they face an enemy who have historically used human shields, placed ammunition depots near schools and hospitals, it is going to end up messy. Evacuating is not ideal, but what is? We cannot expect Israel to abandon its citizens. If the IRA had launched a bloody assault killing thousands in England and brought hostages back to Belfast, we’d likely see an escalation from the British Army. Same with many other countries. When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour in an act of war, it wasn’t the fault of the US for retaliating with war. If Hamas are going to do similar, then they are responsible as the aggressor.

I do not know what will happen, evidence may emerge of Israel committing deliberate attacks on civilians, but right now it’s too confusing to say. However, Hamas have already gone beyond the line of acceptability by a long shot and explicitly make their intent clear. They do not care about Palestinian lives for that matter, and there will be no peace and harmony until they’re discredited. This has a chance to end if Hamas release the hostages, but there is little pressure for them to do so and force Israel into doing what they said they’d do.

[Siderite]

This is not good and has me more worried now. He needs to be removed from office.

Israel's minister of national security, Itamar Ben-Gvir, said the only thing that should enter Gaza until the hostages are released are “hundreds of tons of explosives” from the Israeli Air Force, "not an ounce of humanitarian aid.”

— Alex Marquardt (@MarquardtA) October 17, 2023

[Iron-awe]

That is appalling from a so called responsible politician, you must be concerned Siderite that with such an extreme unpopular right wing government running Israel this whole saga is going to get more bloody and deadly by the day, the poor innocents firstly in Israel and now in Gaza, what a terrible situation for the people who are not responsible for any of this.

[Iron Age]

What do you expect from a “minister” with a picture of Baruch Goldstein on his office wall.
Equally odious as Hamas.

[Siderite]

Iron-awe wrote:

That is appalling from a so called responsible politician, you must be concerned Siderite that with such an extreme unpopular right wing government running Israel this whole saga is going to get more bloody and deadly by the day, the poor innocents firstly in Israel and now in Gaza, what a terrible situation for the people who are not responsible for any of this.

I do not like the Israeli government and have noted the protests recently. I have been in favour of the protests for some time, and still am now. Netanyahu has to go, even if it has to wait to the war’s conclusion. As do the cranks supporting him. However, what happened would see Israel go to war under any Israeli government. The nature of the government gives me more worries over response, which is why that tweet alerted me.

I agree with the horror of what’s happening. I don’t think there’s any easy solution until Hamas just releases the hostages, which is no big ask, and some pressure can be put to end this.

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