The shady world of the Tories

[Siderite]

So, you are arguing that their funding isn’t opaque and we should know what or who funds them, then? News to me. This is what I mean by lack of openness or transparency.

Maybe, instead of arrogantly blustering over others, you could take a step back and not patronise others and dismiss them as idiots not on your level, eh? ;-)

It’s this which gives me impressions of ego and arrogance, and it has little to do with people bullying you, because I have tried to be civil above. To no avail. Hypocrisy at its finest.

[Deereyme66]

Who said ‘secrecy’? And who claimed they knew nothing about Tufton Street? Why do you persistently feel the need to exaggerate and distort what is put forward by others? The fact is Tufton Street has barely been in the mainstream media at all until recently. Don’t try and demean forum posters for suggesting there is a lack of transparency on this matter. It doesn’t surprise me in the slightest that you know a lot more than others might on this subject, seeing as you’re a Tory Party member with a background in PR.

[64]

What is Tufton st for we uninitiated?

[Bucksiron]

I don’t know why you think anything’s aimed at you, Siderite.

All sorts of funding of all sorts of organisations is “opaque” as you put it. You’ll find exactly the same behind numerous organisations across the whole political spectrum, including the left. Of course the media will spin this, which is fair enough but it’s hardly Watergate.

[Bucksiron]

That’s rubbish, Deerey. These organisations have been in the media and known about for years.

[64]

Aye they have plenty to say until you ask who funds them.They should be banned.They are predominantly right wing as its profiteering big business who fund them and its harder to get funding for left wing/good causes

[Siderite]

Bucksiron wrote:

I don’t know why you think anything’s aimed at you, Siderite.

All sorts of funding of all sorts of organisations is “opaque” as you put it. You’ll find exactly the same behind numerous organisations across the whole political spectrum, including the left. Of course the media will spin this, which is fair enough but it’s hardly Watergate.

I took your comment to be a response to mine. I don’t think anyone is claiming it’s the Watergate, but we have a right to transparency. These Tufton St think tanks rank poorly in transparency indices, compared with others, left or right.

[Bucksiron]

You’d have a point if it turned out to be a right-wing dictator, 64, but if that were the case I think it would have been unearthed by now. Plenty of organisations on the left have financial backers every bit as ‘shady’ as those on the right.

[Heath]

The old nah nah nah nah nah argument. Good distraction tactics Bucks, stops you from even looking at the Tufton Street stuff, yet you will argue for ever on threads you start.

How about Truss getting 500k for her leadership bid when the rules state a maximum of 300k. What’s the point in rules if they are not going to be applied?

[Siderite]

I don’t believe in others do it, so let’s turn a blind eye. It was bad enough with Labour and Mandelson, who was crooked. This lot take the mick, and no amount of what about Labour justifies it.

[64]

Dictators? That’ll Putin funding Boris?
The old pretend the others side are the same argument ,is that all you have?

[Bucksiron]

I don’t believe in “others do it, so let’s turn a blind eye” either, BRI/Siderite. I’m simply pointing out that in the real world of politics this is what goes on. It’s a very dirty business, I’m afraid; and that applies to all parties.

The point is that those on the left love to make out they’re “fair, decent and honest” while claiming those on the right are the opposite. This is a total and utter fallacy. The left is just as bad, if not worse.

[Siderite]

I haven’t said it’s unique to the Tories, but it’s all worthy of critique. You rightfully critique left wing instances, but whenever a right wing instance comes up these arguments are made. It comes across as whataboutery.

This current government has been very sleazy, sleazier than any Labour, so I can’t agree with the latter. Though, that does not mean I think Labour are angels or without such problems. If you can state your belief, so can I, without charges of being some tribalist.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Deereyme66

[Heath]

Now they are all as bad as each other argument. Very lazy Bucks.

No they are not!!

[Bucksiron]

Yes they are, Heath, and it isn’t “lazy” but the reality.

This idea that those on the left are more caring and somehow better than those on the right is total and utter rubbish. It’s not unusual for those on the left to say they “could never be friends with a Tory”. Just how absurd is that. This sort of stuff comes out all the time — look at the nurse a few days ago saying that Tory voters “…don’t deserve to be resuscitated”. She then claimed it was meant to be a joke.

As for ‘whataboutery’, Siderite, this is exactly why these points have to be made. The left come out with this stuff as though they are all little angels and, as you say, they’re not. However, I’ve no idea why you or how this makes you a tribalist.

[Siderite]

Criticising the Tories for shadiness doesn’t inherently mean the left are angels. I think it’s best in arguments to not point the finger at another side, whoever it may be, because that reeks of whataboutery and diverting the point.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Heath

[Northumbiron]

But it’s all some people have got!

[64]

The Irony of Russian money filling blue coffers and not red isn’t lost on me

[Bucksiron]

I think you’ll find plenty of shady money filling coffers on the left, 64, from many different sources, e.g. China.

Siderite, nothing personal but that’s a daft argument. A definition of ‘hypocrisy’ is “the practice of claiming to have higher standards or more noble beliefs than is the case”. This sums up Labour very nicely.

It doesn’t reek of ‘whataboutery’ or ‘diverting the point’ at all. Take NI’s comment, which is irony personified given the left is always claiming higher moral ground through exactly this sort of approach. We see it all the time on this board.

[Siderite]

No it isn’t. If we all spent time pointing out hypocrisies of the other side no criticism would be possible. There’s a reason guilty parties say “look over there, they’re hypocrites.” It’s to deflect.

[Siderite]

To emphasise this, how pathetic would it be for Labour supporters to say the Tories can’t complain about Corbyn anti-Semitism, because of their handling of the Windrush scandal, and the racism involved? You have admitted that an older guard of Tories have a racism problem, so using this logic of hypocrisy, we can just dismiss Labour anti-Semitism concerns.

We shouldn’t, because problems on one side do not justify problems on the other. There is no way we can improve things if we just shrug our shoulders and say “it’s fine, the others do it.”

[Heath]

“This idea that those on the left are more caring and somehow better than those on the right is total and utter rubbish”.

What’s total and utter rubbish is you using the phrase “total and utter rubbish” in virtually every post as if you are the sole judge on what’s right and wrong.

2 users thanked author for this post.

Iron-awe, Northumbiron

[Bucksiron]

As opposed to you and your mates, Heath, who just agree with and thank each other all the time.

The idea that those on the left are more caring and somehow better than those on the right IS total and utter rubbish. The irony, as always it seems, just goes above your head. The left always loves to make out it’s more caring and better, which makes something of a mockery of your comment about me being a ‘sole judge’.

[Deereyme66]

‘As opposed to you and your mates, Heath, who just agree with and thank each other all the time.’

I’m sure we’ve had this conversation in the past Bucks? There are a fair few occasions when this happens; it’s bound to when you have a number of posters who are, broadly speaking, left wing liberals, but it’s certainly ñot ‘all the time’ and I don’t believe any of us are ‘mates’. There are numerous instances over the last few weeks alone that demonstrate we don’t always agree and ‘thank’ each other. Of course, it’s more than likely that centre left, harder left, are only rarely going to agree with those on the right.

2 users thanked author for this post.

Heath, Siderite

[Deereyme66]

In response to your other comments about the supposed ‘caring left’; when a Party has at it’s core ‘for the greater good’ and roots in workers rights, it’s more likely to be perceived that way compared to a Party with self interest, free markets and social order principles.

[Bucksiron]

The Tories don’t stand for ‘self interest’, Deerey. What they do stand for is individuals having the right to make decisions and take responsibility for themselves, with as little interference from the state as possible. As for free markets, presumably you’re saying Labour doesn’t stand for this? I think you’ll find otherwise, at least under Starmer. Regarding social order, that can mean a lot of different things though I strongly suspect your meaning is really ‘social hierarchy’? If so, you’re even more stuck in the past than I thought.

The really interesting point here is that the vast majority of Tories would absolutely agree with workers rights and ‘for the greater good’, though I doubt you’ll ever agree that to be the case. The problem is that the people who really need the help are the ones least likely to get it and this is where things become rather more complex. I have a lot of sympathy for low-paid rail-workers but if the unions insist on running the 21st railway system with 19th century working practices then I have a problem; and, no, I don’t think the rail companies are great either.

Similarly with the NHS. Of course nurses need more money but I have two friends who are now retired GPs on joint pensions of £96,000 — and they stopped working at 60. I have a friend who is a consultant anaesthetist, enjoying life playing golf by working part-time on a crazy NHS salary and with a gold-plated pension to look forward to. Consultants are stopping work because they have to pay more tax to top up their £1million+ pension funds; and so it goes on.

[Deereyme66]

Whatever. I doubt anyone really cares what you put forward anymore tbh

[Siderite]

There are elements I tend to agree with, but there’s no point saying that, because Bucks will only say agreeing with him is pathetic.

[Bucksiron]

You might actually be surprised, Deerey.

[Heath]

Your friends aren’t nurses then are they!!!

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