“The knee”

[Awaywego]

If you actually read my posts TW, you would understand (well maybe not) I totally agree with you on your posts about the travellers, but your so lame if you were a horse they would have shot you by now.

[Ferrite]

Awaywego wrote:

The Bosman ruling was nothing to do with players moving from the EU Gurnelista, pre Bosman players weren’t free to leave their club without a transfer fee (unless agreed) now they can just walk away and can even negotiate a deal with another club with a year left of there contract to go, hence why transfer fee tribunals were set up to protect clubs who developed young players,walking away with no fee at all.

It’s literally a piece of EU legislation. One which I presume will still apply come January, just that foreign players will be subject to much stricter immigration regulations. But it will still apply to domestic transfers, as far as I know.

[Xxx]

Awaywego wrote:

If you actually read my posts TW, you would understand (well maybe not) I totally agree with you on your posts about the travellers, but your so lame if you were a horse they would have shot you by now.

Look your just a knoub

[Awaywego]

Sorry Xxx don’t have any family connections with America,TW thinks I am a cu.. though.

[Gurnelista]

Gurn’s point about “EU players” should have read “Players within the EU”. Good to know somebody’s still reading this column after all the compliments flying around. But whatever happens re. Bosman, it’ll be totally irrelevant to the daily lives of 99.9% of Scunthorpians.

More relevant will be that, under the Tories, Brexit is likely to lead to more shortages, exploitation, unemployment, crumbling public services, longer waiting times for hospitals and GPs, more boarded-up shops, more failing businesses, and even more people leaving the area.

As usual, it will be ‘ordinary people’ who bear the brunt, as they get sicker, weaker and poorer, particularly in towns like Scunny.

Yet, the whole Brexit exercise has been based on soundbites, fantasies and downright lies. It’s been like an illegal advertising campaign for a non-existent product, which has left the ‘leavers’ in love with an idea or fantasy, rather than anything tangible which would improve their daily lives.

That’s why, when Brexiters are asked for their reasons, most say exactly what AWG and others have said on here, with ‘arguments’ which aren’t supported by the facts at all. That’s because it’s hard to deny the power of the charlatan who has gained your trust / confidence. Once he has gained that, he has control over you for many years, since to break free is to admit you’ve been had. It’s like with strong religion.

True, the argument for ‘remain’ wasn’t made effectively. It’s always harder to defend the status quo. You could tell everyone about the advantages of membership, but if others can show that the UK pays in more than it gets back, even just £100, and circulate a lie about an immigrant accordion player getting benefits to repair to his bellows, it makes for shocking headlines in the populist sections of the media, the twitter trolls are mobilized to punch down even harder on their keyboards, while the Greek chorus on here pipes up with renewed vigour.

So, in the end, we should blame the liars for their deceit and cunning, not the lied to. Show some compassion for the conned, and all that. It’s Xmas after all.

[Ferrite]

The idea of membership of the EU “costing” money because we pay money in is a joke anyway. Do people really not think that there are some benefits of being in such a union? We’re about to find out, when we our on the outside, just how good value that membership was.

[IronIronIron]

This is meant to be a football thread about taking the knee. It is not another place for the poor loser remoaners to harp on and on and on and on and on about Brexit.

[Anonymous]

I’m pleased we have the voice of reason injecting such lovely, and totally not divisive, rhetoric like remoaners to let everyone know their place. That’s one way to get what he wants and not get everyone’s backs up so they continue to argue to toss about Brexit on this thread.

[Awaywego]

And to be fair we keep getting back to the football sooner or later Iron.

[Heath]

You will be a “poor loser” as well.

[Ferrite]

I’m genuinely curious to learn what Brexit-supporters think they’ll get from Brexit, in tangible terms. What will make up for everything we’ll lose?

[Northumbiron]

Good job we’re in T3. Some of the above would be an embarrassment to the club if they were allowed back in.

Cambridge fans’ jeers for knee protest ’embarrassing’ – Mark Bonner

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55327275

[Just Iron]

Gurney said : ‘Yet, the whole Brexit exercise has been based on soundbites, fantasies and downright lies. It’s been like an illegal advertising campaign for a non-existent product, which has left the ‘leavers’ in love with an idea or fantasy, rather than anything tangible which would improve their daily lives. Y

That’s why, when Brexiters are asked for their reasons, most say exactly what AWG and others have said on here, with ‘arguments’ which aren’t supported by the facts at all. That’s because it’s hard to deny the power of the charlatan who has gained your trust / confidence. Once he has gained that, he has control over you for many years, since to break free is to admit you’ve been had. It’s like with strong religion.

True, the argument for ‘remain’ wasn’t made effectively. It’s always harder to defend the status quo. You could tell everyone about the advantages of membership, but if others can show that the UK pays in more than it gets back, even just £100, and circulate a lie about an immigrant accordion player getting benefits to repair to his bellows, it makes for shocking headlines in the populist sections of the media, the twitter trolls are mobilized to punch down even harder on their keyboards, while the Greek chorus on here pipes up with renewed vigour.

So, in the end, we should blame the liars for their deceit and cunning, not the lied to. Show some compassion for the conned, and all that. It’s Xmas after all.’

And this from the one who resorted over a lengthy period on the non football section to propounding the theory, with no explanation or justification, that myself and at least one other poster were the same person posting under different names. A conspiracy theory devised to stifle my voice because he didn’t like my views and openness. It meant that he could associate me with all sorts of views that I never voiced … so avid a pursuer of truth and righteousness is our Gurney. Even several of the regular posters there seemed uncomfortable with the tactic but, apart from BRI who seemed to find it distasteful, the only other voices suggested I shrug it off and ignore him. I chose to stay off the Bru .. I’m not a regular poster anyway .. but reading the above was too much. You are are a hypocrite Gurney. Like those you purport to despise .. those twisters and exploiters who further their self centred cause .. you are so into your virtuous ideological stance that you can justify, probably even to yourself, behaving like them. Pass the sick bucket someone.

[Awaywego]

In your opinion NI, I was glad that both for and against expressed their opinions. Can’t be anymore embarrassing than booing your own players on to the field. But then again some fans Deem it acceptable.

[Bucksiron]

I hardly ever come on this board now and this thread reveals why. Whatever people’s views might be they deserve to be heard and respected, but that rarely happens on here.

The main problem I have with ‘the knee’ is, first, that BLM is a political organisation and whether you agree with BLM’s views or not the football authorities should never have associated the game with ‘Black Lives Matter’. They’ve now put this right but it should never have happened in the first place. The second reason is that after a while all these gestures become routine and instead of reinforcing a message actually begin to diminish it.

As for the EU, Gurnelista’s comment is a classic example of pure dogma. What people such as Gurnelista refuse to accept is that the remain camp used tactics every bit as bad as the leave campaign and couldn’t win the argument even with the entire Government propaganda machine behind it. The vast majority of remainers accepted their argument was well and truly lost with the result of the last election, yet ideologs such as Gurnelista still maintain everything is down to the media and some mystical power.

Of course there are problems associated with leaving the EU but, again, people such as Gurnelista refuse to accept there will also be a lot of benefits. Failure to accept this reveals, at best, complete ignorance or, at worst, a complete lack of respect for anyone else’s views and opinions. The only person Gurnelista believes to be right is himself.

[Anonymous]

While I agree that we cannot blame the media for brainwashing and the campaign by Remain was so incredibly weak I don’t think it’s fait to say that failure to accept benefits is ignorance or respect of anyone else’s opinions.

I think the concerns, as indicated by a pro-Leave government’s own impact assessments, are worrisome and were not what was presented at the time by those who promised us sunlit uplands as nations flock to complete deals on our terms and we can become a prosperous free trading nation on our own. Instead we have a FTA smaller than the UK itself and deals which are no better than before with some nations and nothing better with the EU itself. A far cry from what was told. There will of course be some benefit, but everything suggests that the negatives will outweigh them and I don’t see what is wrong with people thinking this, unless you’re opposed to people having a different opinion to you based on the reality.

All I can hope is that people like Bucks will have the courtesy to not make stab-in-the-back myths in a year’s time when Brexit has happened and if things are not looking rosy, especially as he lectures others on how disagreeing with him means they’re holding others with contempt. Unfortunately, my experience with Bucks is that he is an ideologue himself who will use the same tactics Gurnelista has used against him and JI.

[billpuntonsghost]

“..we cannot blame the media for brainwashing and the campaign by Remain was so increadibly weak!”
The media was sooo Remain it was off the scale.
The shock to the political classes that the masses knew what they were voting for was a major shock….victory went to them.

[cassidystash]

The masses knew what they were voting for!! I don’t think so. They voted leave to stop immigration with no thought (or knowledge) of other possible consequences. Still to meet a leave voter who doesn’t give that as their prime reason. Plenty now moaning about the weak pound making their holidays more expensive (not this year obviously) and I doubt the haulage industry was expecting what they’re getting now.

[Just Iron]

On topic. Is anyone surprised by the fact that, whatever the pros and cons of Brexit, it exposes a deepseated fundamental rift between those who are far from convinced that nation states are the best way for the mass of humanity to co exist on the planet and those who do. All the rest is just detail.
Off topic. I am happy to have highlighted the duplicity of Gurney in my post above. If calling him a hypocrite is too harsh .. presumably because he couldnt see how such moralistic postings as the one quoted above are irreconcilable with his previous tactics …. then a simple acknowledgment and apology does the trick. Shall I hold my breath?

[Anonymous]

Just Iron wrote:

Is anyone surprised by the fact that, whatever the pros and cons of Brexit, it exposes a deepseated fundamental rift between those who are far from convinced that nation states are the best way for the mass of humanity to co exist on the planet and those who do.

Not sure I agree here, because I don’t agree with the idea that there should be no such thing as a nation state and can’t think of many who do. I think this is a rather unfair characterisation of the situation.

[Gurnelista]

cassidystash wrote:

The masses knew what they were voting for!! I don’t think so. They voted leave to stop immigration with no thought (or knowledge) of other possible consequences. Still to meet a leave voter who doesn’t give that as their prime reason.

Too true Cass. There’s no doubt a huge majority did vote to stop people coming over here to mend things, clean things, and to work in our NHS and care homes to look after our families & friends in return for a pittance. As a basically powerless group with few friends in the media or politics they were an easy target, and presented as ‘the problem’, rather than the reality of failed Tory economics and austerity.

BPG – you’ve clearly forgotten that most of the foreign-owned sections of the mass media – the Telegraph, Times, Sun as well as the Mail and Express – were all pro-leave, as are Fox and Sky news. That’s about ¾ of the readership, maybe more, plus television. There was also a likely criminal campaign by Farage, and a very sly one conducted through social media, whereby lies from apparently reliable sources were were freely spread around. All this benefitted those who would not only not suffer, but would profit from selling their media to a gullible public, as well as those who could actually make money from a Britain in decline, like Rees-Mogg.

https://www.channel4.com/press/news/brexiteer-jacob-rees-mogg-estimated-have-earnt-ps7m-investments-referendum-according

Here on Bru, you had Les and co. feeding their propaganda to those who knew no better, and now millions will suffer the consequences. I don’t blame those who were taken in. But, I do blame those who lied with the full knowledge of what they were doing.

Justles – instead of shamefully stealing around this board in a disguise as convincing as Grayson Perry’s ‘Claire’, come clean and recognize the only ‘deep-seated fundamental rift’ is between the reality and the rhetoric, and what this means for millions of people. It’s not smart to pose as ‘what-me-worry?’ and pontificate as if mid-fiddle, while Rome burns. It may not matter to you, but teachers are meant to educate – you and Jonathan should never be let near a classroom again.

BI –The usual empty bluster. Tell us what the benefits are, and why they are worth the even greater catastrophic damage about to be visited upon the UK economy. Whatever happened to ‘cake and eat it’, ‘sunny uplands’, ‘easiest deal in history’??

[Northumbiron]

Bucksiron wrote:

The second reason is that after a while all these gestures become routine and instead of reinforcing a message actually begin to diminish it.

Not often I agree with Bucks, but this too is my only concern.

People used to stand for the National Anthem at the end of a film in the cinema. When did that end?

Need action as well as gestures.

Not commenting on Brexit as this is a thread on footballers taking the knee.

[Anonymous]

I would like to reiterate my agreement with Bucks on that issue.

Also, Gurn, you may get more sympathy from JI if you didn’t continue to make evidence free accusations about how he’s actually someone else.

[Greylag]

Taking the knee HAS become rather routine and is losing its impact. That does not mean that the message behind it is not a worthy one. It seems to me that SOME criticism of the gesture in the early part of this thread was ill founded and prejudicial, even racist in a few instances

[Bucksiron]

Football can play a big role in delivering the anti-racism message and must do so, but ‘Taking the knee’ needs to stop. The problem is the football authorities are too weak to take a lead on this.

Gurnelista, thank you for confirming my point. Your last post is, once again, pure dogma. Nothing you say can ever be questioned. Only a complete fool or total bigot would claim there are no benefits to leaving the EU and if you need me to spell these out then I suggest you’re an even bigger fool than even I imagined.

There are, of course, also downsides but given how the world was supposed to end if we voted for Brexit there can’t have been many who were unaware of them at the time of the referendum. That blows another hole in any argument over the media because the biggest and most influential player of all — the BBC — was very much on the side of remain. I see you conveniently ignored them, Gurnelista, which is strange given your apparent expertise on this matter.

My experience of Brexit was the exact opposite of yours, Cass — I don’t know anyone who voted for it on the basis of immigration. In fact the complete opposite because everyone I know recognised the benefits of immigration. The major issue I came across was the move by Europe towards a federal state controlled by unelected bureaucrats. Politicians are bad enough but at least we can vote them out.

Finally, it’s worth saying that Merkel is coming under a great deal of pressure in Germany to roll out the vaccine, which she’s refusing to do until it’s been approved by the EU. There’s an irony if ever there was one.

[MK Iron]

Bucks I have never met a racist that admits to being one. Have never met one that doesn’t get angry if you suggest they are being racist.

And finally I have never met a racist that did not vote for Brexit.

[Lord Kitchener]

Awaywego wrote:

It was our money that we contributed to the EU that they give us back, and our unions that achieved most of our employment rights alot that are better terms than EU citizens have. If any of our governments decide to water any down than we have the power to vote them out and vote for the rights we want, in football alone the Bosman ruling has done us no favours.

A lot of renoaners will never understand that we are net contributors to the EU. In other words we pay more than we get back. The original Trades Union Movement was a damn sight more important to improving workers rights than the EU could ever be.

I’m still confident that leaving will prove to have been a great move, and that others will follow. The only thing that does worry me is that as more nations exit the EU, who are already talking about creating their own military, another war in Europe could become a possibility. It’s not as if we have no history of it…

[Awaywego]

A lot of pubs in northern Ireland still sing the national anthem at closing time, can be a bit feisty depending on which side of the social divide your on,best just to stand up or leave before closing time.

[Gurnelista]

LK if you look above you can see a link in my post to an article about who the net contributors are. It’s not as clear-cut as you suggest. It costs each of us about £100 a year. Now who knew that?

And how many more times does it need saying that Brexiters really should get hold of the facts? In this case, the current mess of Brexit will wake people up in other EU countries to the ridiculous fantasies of their far-right factions.

Moreover, there are many countries who want to join the EU but can’t, because they don’t meet the convergence criteria.

BI – you still haven’t mentioned any benefits. Come on, fill your boots, we’re out now, and where are they? Come on, give us just one.

The point is that all this was totally unnecessary. Why? Because no deal is possible which was better than the deal we already had.

[Anonymous]

Bucks, no-one said it would be the end of the world. I know David Cameron made the silly suggestion of WWIII starting, but that wasn’t a serious point of civil discourse since then.

The problem is that things you once dismissed as project fear (the need to stockpile goods, the NI border issue etc) have come true, so you can’t just dismiss them as acceptable downsides when you once ignored them and said they were nonsense.

It would help if you engage in the actual points when debating, instead of engaging in what you accuse others of doing, in disregarding all points to you as inherently false based on a black and white viewing of the world.

[Author]

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