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[64]

Being ignored, Brexit is a disaster and not one major party is saying so and Israel is as bad as Saddam’s Iraq, yet nothing
Why are our moderates who claimed to car so much being so quiet on Israel ,anyone could think that their caring attitude to Israel murderous regime was purely internal party politics that backfired
As for Brexit they’re still paying lip service to tax dodging press barons.what a country

[Gurnelista]

Aye, I think it’s Labour’s ‘aggressive cautiousness’ at winning the game and getting into power. Once there with a sizable majority – a size that’s unlikely to be repeated in future elections – they should be brave enough to be radical on all these fronts, like Brexit.

Just about everything the Brexiters said would get better, has got worse. And now, Farage, the man who lied loudest and longest about Brexit is benefitting from the damage it has done to the Tory party! Oh, the irony.

And, where’s Jonny these days? He seems to have gone quiet. Busy doing doors for Reform, maybe?

[Fifty Pence]

Any left leaning person will be against Israel’s right-wing politics, and that’s before the atrocities that any decent person (left or right) would be against. But right wing media have managed to convince reformed meat voters that anybody against Netanyahu’s policies is anti-Semitic, and Labour seem too scared to argue. Being against Netanyahu’s policies is NOT anti-Semitic, NOT anti-Israel, NOT pro-Hamas. Labour does have issues with anti-Semitism, and is rightly trying to deal with it, but they need to remember being ideological against right wing policies itself is not anti-Semitism. Reform and the Tories have much bigger problems with bigotry.

[Siderite]

Being against Netanyahu is not antisemitic, but too often those who claim they’re ‘legitimately criticising Israel’ use that to justify demonisation of Jews who support the idea of an Israel, demonisation of Israeli Jews as a whole and tie in unconnected rubbish as such.

One can criticise Netanyahu without portraying him as a blood drinking demon (blood libel) similar to how we can criticise Robert Mugabe without resorting to racist caricatures of black people. It’s not Netayahu this affects in this country, but Jews who see it.

[Just Iron]

64 … Israel bears no comparison to Saddam’s Iraq. To use your debating methodology..That statement is bilge.

Fifty Pence … I’m a decent person. I’m certainly against atrocities. I’m definitely appalled at the events of October 7th, the murder, abuse and kidnapping of men, women and children. Not to mention the thousands of rockets which rained down on Israeli citizens for weeks in the build up. If and when Israel finally makes a drastic response to the thousands of missiles being launched by Hizbullah from Lebanon … strangely ignored by most media ..I anticipate further vilifying of Israel. They probably won’t however be vilified by the 100,000 Israelis currently displaced from homes , businesses and communities for the last 6 months. I also hate the carnage of war ..but accept that Government’s have a duty to defend and rescue their own citizens.
If we want genuine atrocities to wring our hands over then, if Hamas and Hizbullah and Iran are going to be given a free pass for some perverse reason by ‘decent people’, then how about the butchery in Syria or the real and current genocide in Sudan? I suspect that the real answer is this …there’s no Jews involved!
To go one step further. What year was Pakistan ‘created’? How many deaths have been a consequence of that decision? Is any ‘decent person’ calling for the termination of that country? No. There’s no Jews involved you see.
I could wish that my questions and challenges would produce a reasoned discussion where my points are properly addressed ..but I suspect that the responses will be more from the 64 school of debate. I hope not.

[Gurnelista]

The reason why you don’t get a ‘reasoned discussion’ where ‘your points are properly addressed’ doesn’t lie with other posters, it lies with yourself. You get your news from the ridiculous WND, support the far right, and for the White House you’d vote for a convicted sex offender who lies the way the rest of us breathe. Plus, you have the temerity to call yourself religious!

The problem is that like many deeply religious folk, your political opinions are based not on facts and reason but on feelings, falsehoods, unreliable anecdotes and misunderstandings all garnered from disreputable news sources, which serve to reinforce your own prejudices.

It’s utterly bonkers, and that is why you never get the kind of fawning sympathy you crave.

[Just Iron]

Since your only tactic is the avoidance of issues and personal attacks I thought you might bless us with your religious bigotry and political gaslighting, Gurney. Not one point addressed as usual ..just an opportunistic venting of spleen. It may have escaped your notice my toxic, myopic friend .. I wasn’t talking to you!!
I will await the possibility of less emotive and mature engagement. Again …let’s see.

[Iron-awe]

Once again JI you come across bristling with indignation when confronted with a few home truths, it does paint a certain type of picture but I won’t be holding my breath for you to admit as much.

[Just Iron]

No bristling here. Just a detailed post refuting statements made by 64 and Fifty Pence about Israel and inviting an on topic response. Then another post pointing out that Gurney had done the usual .. ranting about religion and presumed political beliefs. Absolutely nothing relating to the points I had made.
Were I to guess who else would jump in with the same approach, IA, you would be high on the list and you haven’t disappointed. Why not just read my first post, apply yourself and give a reasoned response? Otherwise you could leave yourself open to giving the appearance of just denigrating anyone who doesn’t agree with your perspective. That seems to be Gurney … and it’s small minded and nasty. Maybe you’re really better than that ..but just a little bit lazy?

[Fifty Pence]

As mentioned in my previous post, disliking the actions of Likud does not mean support for Hamas. This is not dislike of a country, a religious group nor a cultural group. Recent polls suggest that support for Likud has fallen massively in Israel, if polls are to be trusted, for the same reason. Even the USA, Israel’s staunchest uncritical supporter, seems to be losing patience.

I’m certainly not calling for the “termination” of any country, anybody wanting to return to pre1948 borders is not a “decent person” in my humble opinion.

There are many widespread issues with creating arbitrary national borders by distant countries (usually western European nations) who don’t understand the local human geography and culture, as we see in the middle east, Pakistan, Africa etc. I’m not convinced the recognition of a Palestinian state by the UN general assembly is going to do much, other than create another contentious border to fight over, while the two governments are so extreme. But that doesn’t mean I agree with the Israeli-imposed blockades and actions (against international law) over recent years against the Palestinian people.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Just Iron

[Just Iron]

Thanks for an actual response to my post Fifty Pence. I recognise that it seemed like I was addressing you personally re the ‘termination of a State.’ By that point I was generalising …sorry for giving the wrong impression.
Are you aware that the ‘blockade’ was as much by Egypt as Israel? Why would that be? My understanding is that the measures were taken to try to prevent weapons being brought in. Since Gaza was handed back to the Palestinians a couple of decades ago the population has been one of the fastest growing anywhere on earth. Some Genocide. I have also been diligently looking for the footage of starving children and evidence of mass famine in recent weeks. Believe me … that footage would be on every channel had the Israelis genuinely blocked all aid shipments. My take is that I wish the searches and restrictions over the years had been more effective so that Hamas would not have had the means to start this debacle. Not an easy task since materials legitimately entering for pipework and other infrastructure was routinely sequestered by Hamas for rockets and concrete was diverted for tunnel construction.
The people who have paid the greatest price in Israel were the progressive, socially conscious peaceniks of the Gaza border Kibbutzim and the attendees at the Nova festival. Many worked alongside Gazans and gave hospitality not realising that some would hand their knowledge as Intel to the insurgents. The ‘land for peace and reconciliation’ movement in Israel has been crushed in blood and tears. They just want their mothers and children and brothers released from Hamas hell and then to be kept safe by the IDF.

[Gurnelista]

It’s completely biased rubbish that you’ve offered above JI, with no concern, compassion or sympathy for the mass casualties of innocent civilians, the women and kids killed, injured or starved to death, mostly on the Palestinian side. There’s merely a comment on how many they have reproduced, so it can’t be genocide! Incredible from someone classing himself as a man of god.

I can imagine a similar post about the Jews appearing on a German version of Iron Bru, somewhere in the Rühr industrial connurbation, about 1940…

Eisen Brau – Nicht Fussball

JustEisen schreibe… Achtung Juden Massaker!!! Sieg Heill! Deutchland uber alles!!

For you, faith is like football without the goals. It’s a case of ‘my team, right or wrong’, and as such there’s no point in debating with the wilfully blinkered dinosaur-denier from the Anglican-Jewish madrassa. You’ve got your scarf so tightly tied round your neck that your critical and empathetic faculties have completely atrophied.

That’s why religion is best avoided, like bow ties and tattoos.

[Siderite]

The point JI was talking about is relevant to those saying that there has been genocide against Palestinians for years, going back to 1948. I think it’s a strong rebuttal of that, given the Palestinian population has increased over the years despite claims of ‘genocide’ since 1948 from some quarters.

What is going on is terrible, of course it is. The problem is that some (and for the avoidance of doubt, I am not referring to anyone on this board here) are trying to make this some extra special case, when it is not dissimilar to the situations in Syria, Ukraine, Sudan, Yemen and so many other warzones, so the idea that this is genocide and the others not doesn’t come from any kind of balanced perspective. Just because the loss of life is a tragedy, it doesn’t mean we should just fling accusations around and use emotion to attack anyone calling for a bit more nuance. For one, I don’t think it’s particularly good to be demoting the victims in Syria, Ukraine, Yemen, Myanmar, Sudan etc to of lesser importance when their loss of life is just as bad and the situations they have experienced are not dissimilar to Palestinians.

I find your post to be “right team, wrong team” as much as anything to do with religion, to be honest. Just provocations and no attempt to understand different perspectives.

[Gurnelista]

Sid, of course what’s going on elsewhere is terrible, if you can be bothered to check back, I posted to that effect months ago, after Oct 7th.

My post is about… well it’s pretty obvious. Just look at the stats. Not just the headline figures, but the innocent civilians, the children who have neither business nor interest in this war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war

It’s monstrous and needs calling out as such instead of mealy-mouthed attempts to ever-so-calmly and quietly justify the IDF’s actions on the grounds of ‘debate’, when it’s vile, pro-IDF propaganda by any other name, on a par with those dreadful websites/books JI posted in Oct/Nov.

Meanwhile, this post just arrived, delayed by some 85 years….

Grusse aus die Rühr, brauen-freunder!!
Der Juden sein schweinhunden!
Arbeit macht frei fur den Juden in Auschwitz, und ihrer Frauen und Mädchen in Ravensbrück!
Das ist sehr gut fur die Deutsche volke.
Juden raus!
Heil Hitler!

Nur-eisen

[Siderite]

Yet none get called genocide. Also, my bit in brackets about who I am referring to is relevant.

As for those casualty figures, how many are civilians? 38,000 dead civilians and 0 dead militants is nonsense. Also, this is all reported by Hamas. The Israeli hostage rescue rescued hostages kept by a journalist, so even some pretending to act as normal civilians aren’t. Hostages kept among civilians to maximise the death toll. As Sinwar says, Hamas loves death more than life and he sees the war going to plan because the more dead Palestinians the better, since it will mean the world turning against Israel and them getting their one state soluition with none of those ‘evil Jews’ to worry about (when they get to deal with them).

None of this means that the actual civilian cost isn’t high, that there shouldn’t be questions of how military tactics are conducted under the circumstance of an enemy like Hamas who are trying to maximise civilian casualties. Netanyahu is trying to use the war to cling on to power, he is a man with few moral values. The casualties are horrible all the same, but maybe a loony religious death cult that is a splinter from a movement of Hitler admirers (The Muslim Brotherhood) share the blame for starting conflicts for a ‘resistance’ (which seemingly entails raping, butchering and mass slaughter).

My dislike of Hamas for what they are isn’t for how they treat Jews or other Israelis either. The dead and struggling Palestinians wouldn’t be dead or struggling if it wasn’t for their deluded Nazi-like extremism. The answer to this is hard, but it isn’t with more grievance mongering, from either side. I don’t like the right wing Israeli Jews who get videoed attacking Palestinians or destroying mosques in gaza as part of the IDF. However, people like Ahmad (below) are those who restore my hope even if it’s a little bit.

https://x.com/afalkhatib

[Gurnelista]

Well, we can debate the accuracy of stats till the cows… etc etc.. but there are various reliable sources which all quote approximately the same numbers.

However, that would be missing the point. How many deaths is enough before you’d say enough is enough? Can you give a figure?? 40k? 50K 100k Palestinian dead? How many elderly and sick? How many kids have to starve, suffer and lose their families? Figures anyone? Thought not.

The thing is this. It’s not possible to debate with a Nazi or anyone with such blinkered vision about anything, whether it’s online or in a football forum or whatever. They just won’t see any other point of view, because they are incapable.

The radio phone-ins are similar. You can present all kinds of factual information showing that what someone believes is based on lies, myths, exaggerations etc. and ask them at the end ‘Has any of this changed your view at all?’ And they say ‘Well, no, it hasn’t’.

That’s because these people have no interest in facts or truth. They are so tightly wedded to their beliefs they can’t let go of them, because if they did, they’d mentally collapse. It’s also why online forums are so unsuited to serious debate, because they are one of the few places political or religious fanatics get to air their views without being called a crackpot/bigot/nutter in person.

Worse, thanks to social media they easily find others who are as blinkered and bonkers as themselves, which reinforces their fantasies, along with the mysterious algorithm which detects the kind of bilge they like to read – such as JI’s beloved World News Daily – and pushes even more bilge in their direction.

So, it’s a fool’s errand to debate issues such as Palestine in an online forum, when no amount of facts or argument would be likely to shift the dial of someone as biased and blinkered as JI, any more than Bucksiron (remember him?) would have chucked away his blue scarf in disgust at the Tories’ malfeasance and shouted ‘Chairman Keir for PM’ from the rooftops.

Sad, but true.

[Siderite]

Those sources all quote the Hamas health ministry for those figures. My point isn’t to argue against the horrors of dead civilians, there will likely be a lot. I am just saying the figures given will likely include militants in the total, and while it’s tragic anyone goes down the path, it’s not evidence of genocide and would be legitimate targets. Russia has lost 400,000+ in the Ukraine war, but I don’t think that means Putin’s ‘ceasefire’ to benefit Russia should be accepted when it was caused by their unprovoked war for imperialism.

That said, this doesn’t mean I don’t want a ceasefire here. The outcomes are tragic, but Hamas have not accepted the latest one which Israel did, though Netanyahu is squirreling. If the hostages can be returned and peace can be guaranteed, it would be great.

[Just Iron]

Gurney … since online forums attract such ‘blinkered and biased’ folks as myself and therefore ‘its a fools errand to debate issues such as Palestine’ .. why on earth have you just submitted paragraph after tedious paragraph on this very subject?
Your lack of self awareness is lamentable ..but also laughable. From where I sit you see the forum as an opportunity to demonise anyone who offers a different perspective to yourself…with a particular animus towards people of faith. As I’ve said before .. mean spirited, nasty and totally lacking in humility.

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billpuntonsghost

[Just Iron]

Had another look at that last couple of posts of yours Gurney. You really are a piece of work aren’t you?
Since you have such a detailed dossier on me I invite the posting on here of ‘dreadful websites/ books’ recommended by me. World News Daily is something I’ve never heard of let alone watched or fawned over yet, in your morally perverted universe, truth and respect are irrelevant when the whole point is defamation. Just alleging that posts are ‘biased rubbish’ isn’t an argument.
I guess it’s obvious where your real motivation lies. You detest the fact that I have consistently and reasonably been happy to share my Christian faith when I felt it appropriate and it drives you crazy. It seeps into every response you make to anything I post.
When I’ve responded previously to your personalised and vitriolic flailings … you play your ‘trump card.’ …. ‘Don’t make it all about you JI.’ The very definition of delusion and projection.
To play the Nazi card to someone who ..as your dossier tells you .. has Holocaust survivors in his family circle and Israeli grandchildren is the lowest form of depravity in this current time of anguish.
You upbraid me for lacking ‘concern, compassion or sympathy’ yet all I have seen of your approach on the forum is a man without honesty or moral scruples, incapable of empathising with others and basking in a misguided sense of his own superiority.
It would be quite something if any of the above gave you a pang of conscience about your conduct. I pray that it might. There could be a better future. We might even learn some things from each other.

[Gurnelista]

Learn form you JI? Why yes, I’ve been doing just that!

I saw that many of Jesus’s flock were making utter fools of themselves online both here and elsewhere, trying to dignify the unspeakable with their fake politeness, and as such were clearly in need of firm guidance.

So a while back I went and had a word with Prof. David Ford, Regius Professor of Divinity Emeritus at the University of Cambridge, and he said “You know what, Gurney? I’ve been thinking the same for a while. The unchristian material out there on the web has made some of ‘em effing stupid… the monstrousness of Netinyahu and the IDF, the egregiousness of Trump, as well as hammering minorities like afro Caribbean lesbians and supporting fools like Farage who brought racism into the mainstream. They just assume it’s all worthy and true. Credulous as hell, some of ‘em! It’s amazing what people will believe!! We need to look at this and get back to first principles. I mean, what would Jesus say???” And with that, he gathered up his cassock and made a swift exit.

And today, this appeared:

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/religion/article/social-media-is-making-us-stupid-says-church-of-england-m8bjbklvf?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1719330433

And so did this:

https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2024/28-june/news/uk/what-would-jesus-think-if-he-read-your-social-media-posts-church-review-asks

If you want those pearly gates you need to clean up your act JI! Even your own team says so.

[Just Iron]

There’s no amount of ‘cleaning up my act ‘ will do me any good ‘ol pal. You think that all your made up defamations put me in a bad light? You dont know the half.

[Iron Age]

An interesting programme on iPlayer, no conclusions and plenty of questions.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04lxjbf/storyville-the-gatekeepers

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Just Iron

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