The big problem with Hell

[64]

I did say basic in my defence

[Deereyme66]

‘It’s a bit more subtle and drastic than that.’

How so JI? As soon as you say ‘subtle’, the ‘disclaimer’ alarm bells ring.

[Just Iron]

Ok. First to answer 64. It’s not ‘basically’ what Jesus or the Bible teaches. What they do say, which is so commonly misunderstood, is that no matter how much we try … how kind or good we may be ..we can’t reach the kingdom of heaven by our own virtue. It takes a spiritual transaction … a new birth.
That’s the reality, Deerey, of Biblical teaching. Hence the subtlety … we will inevitably manifest kindness, empathy etc if we genuinely have had that encounter. But it doesn’t start with any measure of human goodness.
I may dip out now .. apparently I ‘have form’ on this … although genuine, civil expressions of interest may always tempt me.

[Deereyme66]

Ah, I see. Okay, I get it, even though I’m very sceptical. Your call if you bow out, but seems a shame. You don’t need my respect, of course you don’t, but I’d have more respect for you if you ignored your detractors.

[Siderite]

I do find some of those Christians who proclaim to follow similar teachings don’t manifest kindness or empathy. Not shade at you, JI, it’s just an observation I have made and one which makes me sceptical of broad claims that any faith or ideology ultimately leads to some great morality.

[Just Iron]

Maybe I’m just not ‘big’ enough, Deerey. What I’ve found is that it’s just not possible to keep it straight when several posters launch in from all angles, ignoring or misrepresenting any explanations I take time to present, lacing replies with insults and usually seeing no need to present their own belief system and the foundation thereof. In this exchange I don’t have that sense .. but not everyone is involved yet and I’m done with discussions that are not in good faith.
Sidey … yes. I know a few bearing the name Christian who fit your description. There are several possibilities. Maybe they haven’t grown much or been badly discipled and taught. Maybe they have adopted a ‘religious’ posture without any real spiritual transaction. Who knows. What I would say is that the cumulative ‘track record’ of those claiming to follow Christ over the centuries … the Judeo – Christian or Biblical worldview … is pretty impressive in civilisational terms. Of course, to save anyone the trouble, I have heard of the Crusades and the Inquisition but don’t accept that things done in the name of Christ are necessarily the product of His spiritual engagement. The ‘track record’ I am talking about are at, the macro level, the great achievements of Western civilisations built on those Biblical foundations and, at a more micro level, the massive social capital even still manifesting in our society from Christian based Charities … and through many individuals who live sacrificially because of their allegiance to one who showed the beauty of such an approach to life and death.

[Siderite]

I could say the same for many people of varying faiths or lack of it.

Those who do not engage in what we would probably see as moral behaviour would justify it and say that those disagreeing aren’t following in God’s footsteps. Plenty of people seem moral paragons, and were hiding dark secrets. I am sceptical of a promised path to moral certainty. Many who follow such will be good and have good intentions, but it can hide the wolves who become high on their own righteousness. I am not just thinking of religion her. Communism fits too.

Anyway, this is probably bungled and I am tired, so will now rest my head and leave it at that.

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Just Iron

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