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Thanks for a genuine and logical … and on the face of it ‘courteous’ response , Deerey. You have ‘previous’ on this …. which I appreciate.
I don’t think it’s a secret that I am not in favour of how the EU emerged out of the initial economic cooperation. Although I was roundly mocked for stating that some things should be judged over a longer timespan than a few years I still hold to that. There’s certainly plenty of evidence/activity across the EU to indicate that all may not be well in coming years.
I definitely agree that some of our present economic woes are attributable to the economic pain of leaving the EU. If I didn’t believe that the path it took was pretty well inevitable then I could even be tempted for the old days of purely economic union. But I’m not really even tempted on that.(I’ll post this then add a bit more … unless I get jumped on first…. because I keep losing text and it’s a bit frustrating)
I can respect that view. There were many things which I didn’t like about the EU, it did seem to encroach and the electoral system was highly flawed. There are other aspects I did like, some things do benefit from a collaboration possible with the EU, with Russia a more evident threat it would have been a useful outlet to bond with allies, instead of having distractions over conflicts in trade.
What got me was the attitude of some who thought we could have our cake an eat it. As Gurny points out, a member’s club (which the EU, the Single Market etc are) will have conditions, including a payment to access the system and legislation for commonality. They were never going to offer us trade deals on the same level as within these markets, because to do so would render them pointless. Yet arguing this point with some was impossible, as it would be “the EU punishing us” or “they need us more than we need them, so they will undermine their own markets for us” or “you just hate this country and are arguing in bad faith.”
No, it was cold reality. I wish it wasn’t the case, I wish I could be more optimistic, but the economy matters and a poorer economic deal with Europe spells poorly for growth and financial betterment. Only last week it was revealed that exports to the EU has dropped by 16% since leaving. They make up the majority of our nearest neighbours, and those who aren’t are in the Single Market (e.g. Norway). Those who think CANZUK or trade deals with tiny nations like Fiji can make up for it are deluding themselves. Trade is usually most common with neighbours, due to logistics and other things. A harmful relationship would be to our detriment with the EU, as we have seen. Any future trade deal would be on their terms, we don’t have that much leverage and all the guff about the no deal ‘nuclear option’ didn’t produce much. We were told of the necessity of that, yet we still have a deal most are unhappy with, one which doesn’t see us better off and one which didn’t see the EU come flocking to us for deals on our terms, as was implied.
Sure, people can say that the EU is in bad shape, but they have done for years, and it still carries on. Will it for our lifetime? Who knows? However, we can only judge on the now, not hypotheticals and wishful thinking from some, and the decision currently doesn’t look that promising, economically, to me.
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Have a bit more to say but have made myself late for the Hospital. A minor op today … if I make it through I will add a final bit later
I echo TW. All the best. :-)
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Have a bit more to say but have made myself late for the Hospital. A minor op today … if I make it through I will add a final bit later
Hope it went okay JI. As a ‘minor op’, shouldn’t be too bad? Hope you recover well.
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Leaving the EU was never about economics, which is why ‘Project Fear’ failed so badly. Many people who voted for Brexit would have been happy to stay had the project actually been about economics, which it was for many years. But that all changed with the drive to a Federal Europe. In truth the EU is in a dreadful mess and anyone claiming otherwise is fooling themselves.
It’s likely to be many years before any proper judgement can be made about the pros and cons of leaving, but there are many in the establishment, including the civil service, who want Brexit to fail while some of the EU countries have behaved like petulant schoolchildren.
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‘Leaving the EU was never about economics’.
That’s not going to wash because we were repeatedly told it was. Saving how many million was it on the side of the bus? Constantly told the UK was better going it alone outside of the EU. This beggars belief.
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There’s certainly plenty of evidence/activity across the EU to indicate that all may not be well in coming years.
Well that’s true of pretty much every economy everywhere, JI! But it’s an argument for caution, rather than taking reckless decisions with consequences as disasterous, profound and far-reaching as leaving the EU.
And, we’re not just talking about the economic aspects. The lies that were told have divided the country, communities and families, from Northern Ireland to our own back yards, not least because of the racism this has brought to the fore.
It was a stupid, stupid plan but it worked because of the lies about some kind of promised land that were put about, not least by some so-called Christians on here, lies and liars which have now been exposed and debunked.
I hope your op went well and you do find this post clear and concise.
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Pointless trying to have a sensible debate, frankly, but some of the comments are just absurd. The EU could collapse — it’s far from impossible — and you lot would still claim it was a mistake to leave.
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What’s so wrong with that bpg? JI has only recently acknowledged that he appreciated Gurney’s previous post regarding Brexit, even if he has a different perspective. Nothing wrong with being less tribal. Heaven forbid, it might actually be healthy?
Pointless trying to have a sensible debate, frankly, but some of the comments are just absurd. The EU could collapse — it’s far from impossible — and you lot would still claim it was a mistake to leave.
Well, yes, it is and not just because of everyone who dares to disagree with you. I have given up, since I know there’s no chance you’d debate with me in good faith. I have to spell out things umpteen times for you not to twist what I am saying.
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BPG … you have both my number and e mail. I’m happy to chat. No need for airing your disappointment with me on the forum. There is a difference between a ‘thanks’ and a ‘like’ …. I think Siderite earlier in the thread and particularly Deerey just above have been a bit more perceptive.
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‘Thanks to all who wished me well. Much appreciated. Had a ‘lump’ the size of an egg removed from my shoulder’
Wow, that’s a little more than ‘minor’ IMO JI! Sounds like it went OK though and wishing you well for continued recovery. I’m sure I can vouch for everyone when I say, despite our differences and arguments, none of us wish any ill on any other forum posters. Take care bud.
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Czech bud I hope I-A, not the American crap!
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‘Thanks to all who wished me well. Much appreciated. Had a ‘lump’ the size of an egg removed from my shoulder’
Wow, that’s a little more than ‘minor’ IMO JI! Sounds like it went OK though and wishing you well for continued recovery. I’m sure I can vouch for everyone when I say, despite our differences and arguments, none of us wish any ill on any other forum posters. Take care bud.
I may disagree with JI a lot, but I usually find him to be reasonable and always behaves with decorum. Not like that matters when it comes to something like this. I would say the same to anyone needing some medical attention of some worry.
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Back on topic, of course there are problems abroad as well as at home. Just look at the inter-related nature of international business, and the way issues effortlessly cross borders at the click of a mouse – inflation, recession, shortages… Look at the human side too – migration, homelessness, homophobia, racism and the rise of the far-right. And then of course, there’s the environment and global warming.
Fact is, you can’t get away from any of this. You can’t just withdraw and lock your door and go back to the 1970s, or was it the 1950s or 1850s, and say ‘that’s it, it’s done with’. No, the only way is forward, and tackling these global problems effectively means forming strong international alliances and co-operating to defeat these challenges together, just as this country and others did during times of world war.
It’s so obvious to all that it almost doesn’t need saying that Brexit has been a catastrophic mistake. The UK was conned and allowed itself to be led by liars, clowns and donkeys and now we’re all poorer for it, except for a few very wealthy media people and far right Tories who wanted it all along. But hey, the rest of us have got our fish and blue passports.
Internationally, the country has become a joke, and it ain’t funny. Still not sure? Thirty years to decide if it’s been worth it? Imagine if people were saying the same about Swann.
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