NettyYahoo bigger murder than Bin Ladenn

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  • #281143
    SideriteSiderite
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    Registered On: December 12, 2014
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    OK. The problem is that whenever I see claims that antisemitism is just criticism of Israel, it’s usually followed by the example which is a picture of Netanyahu drinking the blood of children or something (such as some of the placards at the marches). This is a claim that has been used against Jews for centuries and I think there are ways of criticising Netanyahu without using such hateful stereotypes, nor do I think the some of the people who use it are so unaware of the history of the ‘blood libel’. It’s not that I particularly care for Netanyahu here, but this kind of imagery hurts many Jews because they see it as an attack against Jews for who they are, since this claim has a long association with such attacks on Jews. Many Jews will look at this and see it as an attack on Jews, not Netanyahu alone. Much is the same for the other claims I see. I think it should be more than possible to criticise Netanyahu without this.

    I agree that Netanyahu let people down, he was so fixated on his own power maintenance that he ignored threats from Hamas. The ultimate responsibility still lays with them though, and both Hamas and Netanyahu are major barriers to a 2 state solution.

    #281145
    fans6464
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    Interesting that you turned my very accurate and admitted by themselves critique of Israeli lobbyists into that of the Old Jewish banker trope.You make my point for me about people criticising rogue state like Israel are basically racist .No wonder they get away with murder and terrorists or freedom fighters are attractive for The Arab populations

    #281146
    SideriteSiderite
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    No, I am against the idea that Labour Friends of Israel is some controlling monolith any more than Labour Friends of Palestine or other similar groups are. Ascribing power to a Jewish involved group is the same old story. I am sure this time the conspiracies that Jews have undue power is true.

    I have not said anyone criticising Israel is inherently racist, but if they go into antisemitic canards, they are indulging in such.

    #281154
    dandaherron@yahoo.co.ukJust Iron
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    30000 civilians casualties!! 3 reservations … 1. Figures supplied by Hamas 2. The ultra technological, Israeli war machine couldn’t find any ‘freedom fighters’ to kill…. at all. 3. Its absolutely, definitely, certainly the case that Israel wouldn’t have ANY interest in limiting civilian casualties before the intense scrutiny of a highly critical watching world.
    Other than that ..case proven.

    #281157
    HeathHeath
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    Case proven, so how many Gazans have been murdered. I suppose the satellite images of mass destruction are fake as well.

    Thought you had permanently done one.

    #281158
    Iron-aweIron-awe
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    Registered On: June 21, 2017
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    This is all a result of parties it doesn’t concern saying to Jews, ” we give you this piece of land to live in and the current occupiers who have lived there for thousands of years and countless generations must leave”, if they don’t we will arm you to the teeth so you can remove them”. Yes it’s controversial but in hundreds of years time that is how history will record it.

    #281159
    SideriteSiderite
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    Personally, I don’t think the idea of civilians dying are fake. However, Hamas’s stats of 30,000 civilians dead and 0 militians dead is silly. Most likely, that total constitutes civilian + militant. I think the actions taken to reduce civilian casualties could be better, especially as we don’t know what will happen with those in Rafah and the number of civilians killed is tragic to say the least. Yet Hamas get much of the blame too. We don’t even know what killed all the civilians. Hamas claim it’s all Israel, but their rockets regularly misfire and likely killed some at al-Ahli (plus others less documented). Never mind their recklessness and cruelty in starting the conflict itself.

    As for what happened to the land, the original UN plan was supported by Israelis, opposed by Arabs who started the conflict. Following conflict ended up expelling civilians, yes, and that is something which should be acknowledged and respected for future peace plans. However, Jews would equally say that they were expelled from Yemen, Libya, Iraq etc too. As they were from Europe, so where were they to go?

    #281169
    Iron-aweIron-awe
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    Not all the nations were united then if you include the Arabs opposing it, which is understandable, was their land they were being kicked out of, anyhow I believe history will reflect the facts of what actually took place not who was right or wrong.

    #281173
    SideriteSiderite
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    Their land was the British Mandate. Before then it was the Ottoman Empire. In it contained many Jews, and both would argue that they had a historical claim to the land. Hence why a two state solution is what is supportable, I think. If history will record facts, it will be to record that the initial two state solution was rejected and that the conflict which led to uplift was driven by such rejection and the years of resistance that has brought nothing but pain and hatred since. Sure, you could argue that the uplifting was bad on the part of Israelis, but it’s not one sided, as evident by the uplifting of Jews from elsewhere and the victims of the ‘resistance’ who are innocent civilians. Israel isn’t the only country formed by such partition, Pakistan is another, and much of the Middle East was created with what many see as artificial boundaries. Peace won’t stand a chance if historical grudges are carried on.

    #281176
    Iron-aweIron-awe
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    Peace is something that will not happen IMO, very sad but totally understandable, the difference between the Arab and Israeli states is huge in terms of culture and tolerance. I believe the inhabitants of Gaza have been treated no better then the Indians in the USA when they were herded onto reservations after having their natural home taken from them. The human race has a lot to answer for throughout history which beggars the question are we even fit to be on the planet at all, as the superior intellect race we are not far removed from the animals we descended from. Anyhow when we eventually destroy ourselves I guess there will be no history left to record, by humans at any rate.

    #281182
    SideriteSiderite
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    There has to be some hope and encouraging grievances will not lead to it.

    The Native American comparison isn’t a good one, since Jews will rightfully point out that Jews came from there, so have some claim of nativity to that land. Also, one is probably more tolerant than the other in some ways currently. Israel has a strong Muslim population, Gaza doesn’t have a single Jew, and any Jew there would risk their life. Gays are tolerated more in Israel, they might be killed for their sexuality in Gaza because it’s against Allah. This is not the opinion of every Gazan, but many, including Hamas. Hamas too have a goal to destroy Israel and kill Jews, so I can only raise an eyebrow if the culture within Gaza is supposed to be so much more tolerant. That said, Israel has its problems with racism, as West Bank shows, and the nutty settlers, but the idea this is all one way is false.

    #281184
    Iron-aweIron-awe
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    How long do you have to inhabit a country before you can say that you came from there? 30,000 years seems a pretty long time to me, however we can swap opinions forever but nothing is going to change soon in the Middle East and I thought the Indian connection was pretty relevant in terms of how they were treated after being there so long but I understand you will have a different narrative and opinion to which you are rightly entitled but it gets us in the never ending stalemate cycle where a lot of threads naturally end up. It’s called debate and discussion which is so vital in a democracy.

    #281186
    SideriteSiderite
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    I haven’t argued against discussion, I just disagree with you (I was stating my opinion, I am not saying you must agree with it, and saying in my opinion after everything is clunky – and I should know about that ;-) ), which is also vital to be allowed in a debate and discussion.

    I haven’t said that Palestinians don’t come from there. Jews have also lived there in some number for centuries and the first record of ‘Hebrews’* as a distinct entity dates back to 1,000 BC in what is now Israel. Both have a big claim, so two states is the only viable solution, especially since one state is likely to cause issues to whoever doesn’t get the state.

    *who would then form the Jewish religion through the forthcoming centuries

    #281189
    dandaherron@yahoo.co.ukJust Iron
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    Case proven, so how many Gazans have been murdered. I suppose the satellite images of mass destruction are fake as well.

    Thought you had permanently done one.

    I’m confused. I thought the point I was making was that the the ‘30000 civilians’ figures are not reliable. Not that there hasn’t been huge destruction.
    I’m also confused about the ‘ban’ you wanted to impose upon me, Heath. I never saw the word ‘permanently’ in the terms and conditions. I think that’s just a product of your wishful thinking ol’ pal.
    Anyhow .. to be clear .. I’ll stay off this site most of the time because, as illustrated by your reply to me, you either have no intention of .. or don’t have the capacity to .. address sensibly made points if they challenge your narrative. Additionally .. to be even clearer .. I’ll post on here whenever I feel like it and, without holding my breath, look for reasoned responses.

    #281192
    HeathHeath
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    Who said something about high horses.

    The so called “ban” is in your head, pal.

    #281194
    Iron-aweIron-awe
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    Careful Heathy he’s super intelligent, it’s all in the condescension, it causes such confusion.

    #281196
    HeathHeath
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    You’re right IA. I clearly lack the capacity to, particularly if he challenges my narrative.

    Fine words indeed.

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    #281203
    GurnelistaGurnelista
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    Peace is something that will not happen IMO, very sad but totally understandable, the difference between the Arab and Israeli states is huge in terms of culture and tolerance. I believe the inhabitants of Gaza have been treated no better then the Indians in the USA when they were herded onto reservations after having their natural home taken from them. The human race has a lot to answer for throughout history which beggars the question are we even fit to be on the planet at all, as the superior intellect race we are not far removed from the animals we descended from.

    Good post IA, such a contrast to the usual ‘Imemy’ above.

    When all that’s been achieved in a scientific understanding of the world and of man himself, it’s desperate that so many countries are still riven by superstition and all its political and cultural baggage. There they are, with their holy books preaching peace and brotherly love, while their leaders whip up support for some of the bloodiest crimes and most barbaric mass atrocities against children, civilians, the sick and elderly… It’s bad, mad, monstrous, evil… words fail.

    #281210
    dandaherron@yahoo.co.ukJust Iron
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    So …still no response to the points I made re ‘civilian casualties.’ If you are alleging that I don’t have a high regard for your approach to debate, Heath .. then in this case you’re bang on the money. Once IA jumps in with his name calling masquerading as pearls of wisdom then it’s probably game over.
    I’ll try one last shot. 64 referred to 30000 civilians casualties. I pointed out 3 things. 1. These figures are produced by the group that intentionally murdered over 1200 men, women and children and declared their intention to kill more. 2. Hamas had the best part of 20 battalions of trained fighters in Gaza before the fighting. Can anyone seriously suggest that a large constituent of the deaths are not Hamas fighters? 3. Before a highly critical watching world how would it make any sense for Israeli forces to target civilians?
    All you need to say is something like ..’Yep. Points taken, JI. Probably the 30000 is a misrepresentation or exaggeration. I get that. But ..(And then make your zero sum case for the Israelis being the villains and the Middle East ..maybe the world .. being a better place without them.)
    What do I now expect? Probably accusations of ‘superiority’ or ‘self absorption’. It would be great to be proved wrong.

    #281211
    Iron-aweIron-awe
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    Name calling, how very simplistic, you need perhaps to look at yourself from time to time and how you respond to others. Didn’t take you long to return when your view about what was said and how you responded was challenged with a few home truths about how others perceived some of said responses. Sometimes you come across bristling with indignation and do adopt a high horse stance, it’s an opinion based on a long observation over quite a few years and many subjects discussed but hey ho you carry on and others will respond accordingly. Perhaps you prejudge a response because you have been brought to book several times over the years by others known privately to you about how you react when matters are discussed . A nice comfort blanket approach for you that, please carry on.

    #281216
    dandaherron@yahoo.co.ukJust Iron
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    Wasn’t really expecting an ‘on topic’ response to my post from you I A so not disappointed. How about looking at my observations on ‘30000 civilians’ and actually giving a genuine critique.
    (You’re probably right about some frustration in my responses. Heath definitely seems ready to just bellow on Israel and a range of other topics. It’s hard to penetrate that. Your approach is more ‘hey ho and away we go’ , skirting the edges, a bit of mockery and making sure that you don’t get too embroiled in actual detail. I’d actually like to be ‘ brought to book’ because I’ve learned that holding erroneous perspectives doesn’t lead to a healthy place. None of us can actually be damaged by reality .. though facing it can sometimes be a bit painful.)

    #281222
    GurnelistaGurnelista
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    Somewhere On High

    https://www.ochaopt.org/

    There’s a queue at the pearly gates of heaven. St Paul is still rigorously inspecting everyone’s credentials. Supplicants’ life stories pass swiftly before his eyes, as he survey’s their suitability for eternal membership. It’s been busy recently, and behind some 30000 despondent figures from the Middle-East, an expectant “Jihadi” humbly waits his turn, as his application is reviewed.

    “So, is this the best you have to offer?” Paul asks him, sternly. “You’re one of those keyboard warrior jonnies, criticising human rights, immigrants, asylum seekers, trade unionists, doctors, nurses, teachers, women seeking abortions, even Afro-Caribbean lesbians from the comfort of your sitting room.

    And you’re a fanboy of those vile American sites, those telling you to get angry, and support the depraved Farage, Johnson, Trump and even the despicable Netinyahu. It’s quite a CV.

    Oh, and what’s this? Once upon a time, you thought the advent of conspiracy tv stations and websites served to “balance progressive establishment power”, despite 80% of mainstream media already supporting the Tories. Odd, when elsewhere you plead for ‘facts’ and ‘reality’! And, it seems you believed in free speech at all costs – presumably this includes speech which is harmful to others, like your ‘right’ to be publicly racist, or the ‘right’ of others to deny the holocaust!

    Even the ABC does not escape your bile – a pious virtue signaller, in your eyes! But don’t you realise it’s his job to signal virtue, you fool!” thunders Paul, enraged.

    “Jihadi… it seems you have an affinity with the thick, selfish, angry people who have dominated the Tory party and its client media for a decade or more. Do you seriously think there’s a place in here for folk like that? Do you think Jesus would have turned away the so-called “small boats”. Do you seriously think in His world, the meek shall inherit bugger-all? It’s a perversion of the Christian ethic. Your politics have usurped your religion.

    And finally, all the above expressed through your self-regard on the website ‘Iron-Burp’ means that, all considered, there’s no paradise for you Jihadi, we’re full up!” Paul says firmly.

    “But where can I go, he pleads, who will have me?”

    “Well you can try Old Nic, downstairs in the boiler room – he often takes your sort. You’ll like it, they are your kind of people – ex-Kippers, a few freemasons, Daily Wail editors… the Tory front bench. It’s hard work down there, but very warm.”

    “But I only tried to interpret…” mumbles Jihadi, forlornly. “And freemasons, what do they have to do with it?”

    “Because their so-called ‘grand architect of the universe’ isn’t one of us, he isn’t Christian! Now, be gone,” bellows Paul, “for I must go back to assessing other applicants.”

    Jihadi hangs his head and turns away, as the gentle, pitter-patter sound of Sounds Like Rain echoes over the tannoy, and from the celestial stadium somewhere in the sky, the ghost of William Punton looks benignly on.

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    #281229
    IronageIron Age
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    Would that be St Peter?

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    #281234
    Iron-aweIron-awe
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    Would that be St Peter?

    Even St Peter needs a lunch break.

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    #281342
    dandaherron@yahoo.co.ukJust Iron
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    Had a few minutes to spare so had a read of Gurney’s ‘excellent’ theological treatise. Apart from the obvious error re St Paul … the ‘Factcheckers’ also asked me to point out that the ‘30000 despondent figures from the Middle East’ should have read ‘31200.’

    #281349
    NorthumbironNorthumbiron
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    Ian Lavender arrives at the Pearly Gates. “Name please”, says St Peter. To which a pompous voice from behind barks, “Don’t tell him Pike!”

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