TBF they were trying to kill a single Hamas leader in an Israeli recognised safe zone for innocent Palestinians, so you can understand their murderous actions really !!!!
There’s a question as to why Hamas like hiding around designated safe zones, hospitals and such, bring war to civilians who are human shields to them. There’s of course a valid question as to whether the civilian casualties should be deemed too much for an operation, though the latter gets asked more than the former. Yet it’s that tactic which is a big part of the issue and such is a war crime.
However you spin it Israel said to the Palestinian civilians after their homes had been destroyed by Israel, ” go to that safe zone you will be safe there not elsewhere”. Then they bombed that zone, fact
I am not spinning. My comment is not an endorsement of this act and I have been dismayed at this happening. It’s the same mistakes as the war on terror. Having to go back into what was supposed to be cleared areas is embarrassing for Israel and pitiful given past proclamations. However, it doesn’t change that war is being brought into civilian areas by Hamas hiding among civilians, which amplifies casualties. There is blame to share.
No, good intelligence could lead to Israeli small hit squads operating in pockets of Gaza where the Hamas leaders would have been identified and taken out not mass bombing in civilian safe areas where you suspect leaders of Hamas may be hiding. It’s simply not good enough to portray the latest Israeli action as justified IMO. You will probably come back and say you don’t think it’s justified and so on it goes you have your view I don’t share but you are perfectly entitled to on here which is why we have a discussion forum in the first place.
I have no idea if that’s viable. However, the issues here are why I said it’s war on terror style errors.
However, none of this horror would have happened if it wasn’t for Hamas launching a stupid and disgusting act of war. The reaction is reminiscent to the Iraq War and there are many issues, of course. Though, without Oct 7th this would not have happened and no actions of Israel justifies or explains it enough.
The only way forward is for Israelis to dispense of Netanyahu and the Ben-Gvir crowd of headbangers and Palestinians to get rid of Hamas. Otherwise this will continue. A peace deal for Hamas just means restocked weapons for more war. Last week members released a video saying all Christians and Jews will have to convert to Islam or die. That is who they are and always will be. At least the Likudists can be voted out and many Israelis are not happy, and I agree with them.
So it coming from twitter makes the video irrelevant then? The nature of the source doesn’t alter the stuff coming from their mouths at all. You sound like the MAGA people whenever they moan about sources when it’s info they don’t like.
The matter is that Hamas are an Islamist group, stuff like this is what they keep saying and has been echoed by Sinwar et al for months. They keep saying stuff like they love death more than life (echoed here), that they want more Oct 7ths, that they think the war is going well because Palestinians dying gives them sympathy. Salman Rushdie is right when Hamas controlled Gaza wouldn’t be dissimilar to Taliban Afghanistan. Yet calling this stuff out makes me like some Christian fundie apparently. Opposing Islamist nonsense is totally unprogressive, calling for women to be treated secondary, Jews and Christians converted or killed and gay people to be illegalised or killed is totally progressive though. That’s their idyllic world.
Also, you assume too much. I look at various opinions on Gaza from BBC to across board. Some of it is of course from the western right, but some of it from elsewhere. Yet apparently videos from the horses’ mouth can be disregarded because they’re from the ‘wrong people’ (yet stuff from Hamas can’t be discounted, they must be trustworthy).
As for some of my favoured accounts, this includes these Palestinians:
So, no, I don’t think I am going down some right wing route because I don’t pretend that Hamas are a huge part of the problem* and are a religious extremist group with Nazi like views and needs opposing. One of the accounts I have shared was a victim of Hamas imprisonment and shares their acts against Palestinians. None of this means that I think the IDF or Israel are without issues, but if you are going to jump on me for calling out Hamas rhetoric and make that out to be like a Christian fundamentalist following WND, well I will push back. It isn’t, and both the Christian right of the USA and Islamism can be opposed. Opposing the latter doesn’t make you like a right wing Christian, given it is calling out religious zealotry in itself.
*I am not defending the settlers in the West Bank who cause issues with Palestinians or Israelis who attack Palestinians in the street, as some videos have shown. They are part of the problem too.
I’m a Christian fundie ..but I’ve messed up because I don’t know what WND is.
You should know, Sidey, which side of the victim/oppressor narrative the Islamists are on. How dare you?
The nature of the source doesn’t alter the stuff coming from their mouths at all.
Actually, it does.
It’s simply daft propaganda and you’ve fallen for it.
It’s just like BPG’s videos, and pre-Brexit, Les and the jonnies.
You surely know there are loonies making all sorts of claims about Gaza and elsewhere all over the www which never get reported by reliable news sites.
So, maybe there should be a separate forum on here where those so inclined can swap ridiculous clips with each other, a sort of digital freak show for the hard of thinking to stare, point, and nod along. Call it ‘Propa Propaganda’, or some such.
Just ignore them Siderite, they aren’t worth bothering about.
That might sound plausible if the video was made by a right wing source, but it isn’t. It’s from the horses’ mouth being shared by someone with a bias. The bias doesn’t erase the nature of the video or of Hamas or of comments by Sinwar which show Hamas for what they are and how they are a huge part of the problem. As for propaganda, it’s easy for you to point and finger wag, but you’re saying I should ignore what the actual people involved say and focus on the actual propaganda that sanitises them. So, maybe a mirror might help when it comes to thinking about ‘being had’. The actions and words of Hamas show them for what they are. It’s not World Net Daily making Sinwar say they want more Oct 7ths.
For some reason you seem opposed to the idea that Hamas are bad. Maybe it’s because it means Israel have some sympathy, but it doesn’t remove the issues from them. IronAge shared something which is of grave concern regarding evacuation plans that obviously haven’t removed civilians, but that doesn’t remove the issues of one side of the war.
I hope nobody opposed the idea that Hamas are bad.Youbsurely must understand why people being ethnically cleansed might support them though?
Israeli army are the same ,the reason I oppose them so vocally is that my government and people like you back these murderers and ethnic cleansers.”I support Israel” Even going as far as painting people who opposed them as “antisemites”
“Even going as far as painting people who opposed them as “antisemites””
Aye, those who refused Jews accessing university buildings, scrawled graffiti on synagogues, on Anne Frank statues, vandalised cinemas showing Oct 7th documentaries, made ludicrous claims about evil Jews organ harvesting Palestinians on no evidence, denied Oct 7th atrocities, called for Israel to be destroyed (knowing what that means), celebrated Oct 7th, made comments on twitter saying stuff like Hitler was right, made it impossible for Jews to openly commemorate past instances of horror like the Black September attacks are all ‘legitimate criticisers of Israel’ and it’s a ‘smear’ to call them antisemites.
I’m a big supporter of Netanyahu me, think he’s in bed with fascists and that they have committed huge errors and war crimes. However, because I think that Hamas caused the war and play a huge role it means I love Netanyahu and the IDF’s actions.
Do you ever wonder if news sources are reliable? Take the video you posted about Gaza. It’s from someone on Twitter who is unverified. The source of the video is not credited. It’s also not available anywhere else. The video and its content have not been reported by any credible news agencies, and the poster isn’t mentioned anywhere else on the www either.
Fact is, anyone could have made this video, stuck it on Twitter with a fake name and picture, and a few credulous loonies around the world would be saying exactly the same as you’ve said above. Why? Because it confirms their suspicions and prejudices. Never mind if it’s untrue or fake, it’s out there and they really, really want to believe it. Plus, the Twitter ID of a studious-looking young woman helps convince the gullible.
But I do like the line above the video which reads “How brain dead do you need to be to believe this crap?” which says more about the content than the poster could ever have imagined.
Aye. It’s unfathomable that Islamists would preach hate for others and that a video that posts bile said by Sinwar and co could be true. Has to be right wing westerners. Islamists are all for love of other religions. It’s not like Hamas have had specific charters calling for similar things, have done similar things (to both Jews and Christians).
I will say that I could be wrong on this, but I have seen nothing to the contrary other than speculation. I will do some research and apologise if wrong.
I will say that I could be wrong on this, but I have seen nothing to the contrary other than speculation. I will do some research and apologise if wrong.
Having tried some research I haven’t found the original source, but I did run it through a video translator to see if the subtitles were accurate. They weren’t, but was still bad (it was more about chasing Jews and Christians across the world to convert them), and I came across a tweet of it from mid-April, so not last week. For that reason I concede it wasn’t the best example to use and I apologise for doubling down on this one example to that degree.
I have seen nothing to the contrary other than speculation.
That’s not how to look at it. Most just ignore videos like these because they aren’t verified. There’s no proof of who it’s by, nor when/where it was made. Nor is the poster verified, either. It’s the lack of this kind of info which makes it a suspicious, junk video.
Instead, look for who made it, when and where, etc. Plus, mentions from reliable news sources that it’s not just casually made propaganda which could have been posted by either side. If that info is available, it makes it more likely to be genuine.
No need for apologies either, just tune up your bullshit detector!
There are bloodthirsty, murderous leaders in both camps, but what I really resent is that innocent, non-combatant civilians, and particularly their children, are being slaughtered in their tens of thousands largely over (the fiction of) religion. That is the real tragedy, I think we can agree.
It does echo what has been said by Sinwar though, so it is an easy one to fool.
I agree with the horrible situation and tragedies for civilians. I know that saying I understand why Israel has reacted with war and blaming it on Hamas has riled some, but I am not saying Hamas are representative of the totality of Palestinians so I am not blaming it on them. Palestinians have been victims of Hamas violence too in this war, as some of those accounts I have shared above have made clear. Part of the reason why Oct 7th was disturbing for me wasn’t just because Israelis were victims (though, of course, that was a large part of it), but because that would be a trigger for war for every nation, even ones without Netanyahu. So, the human toll doesn’t disaffect me, it makes me hate Hamas more for starting this rubbish. Past ill treatment doesn’t excuse or explain, since others like Mandela and MLK showed another way.
None of it means the IDF haven’t had huge issues; having to re-evacuate is a bad sign of their operation, of course it’s right to question whether the risk of civilian casualties is too high for an operation. However, I don’t think the deliberate decision to maximise civilian casualties with keeping ammo dumps near safe zones (as the New York Times recently spoke about and has been documented elsewhere, even by Amnesty International previously) can be ignored for this, because this is part of the reason for civilian casualties. Sinwar doesn’t care, as he has repeatedly said in interviews with Memri TV and others. My contributions, particularly recently, have been on this to show that it is a two sided issue and that this one aspect does get ignored. The ‘peace marches’ don’t seem to like it when Hamas gets criticised at all, even when talking of how they treat Palestinians, and some speak as if they’re freedom fighters. They’re a ludicrous religious cult endemic to parts of the Islamic world. Of course we should be careful not to follow the path of Tommy Robinson and demonise Muslims; that is a virtue, but there is an issue within aspects of the religion which need forcefully standing against. Hamas are a part of that and Palestinians deserve a future without that kind of hateful, destructive thinking as much as Israelis do for not having to fear them. That fear is also what drives Israelis to their right wing as much as Israeli actions do to Palestinians.
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