‘Incipient McCarthyism’

[Deereyme66]

As a Jew, I have become increasingly worried that the charge of antisemitism is being levelled to silence legitimate and important debate. Antisemitism is on the rise, but there is also a rise in the unscrupulous use of the term to silence reasonable questions about the Israeli…

— Robert Peston (@Peston) December 31, 2023

[Siderite]

Many of those claiming this end up silencing the rise of antisemitism. As the BBC reported the other day, antisemitism claims have risen sharply. I would have more time for calls of ‘incipient McCarthyism’ if large parts of the left didn’t continuously turn a blind eye to blatant antisemitism at best, and participate it at worst. Every time Jews and others try and point this out they’re told that they are ‘weaponising antisemitism’. The people who claim that ‘of course they’re against antisemitism’ never seem to find the energy to call it out, despite supposedly being against it.

It seems rather perverse to focus on this when Jews are afraid to wear Jewish attire in public. Large parts of the left seems more exorcised about claims of antisemitism than antisemitism towards Jews. It’s like the mirror of the right wing who moan about claims of racism cheapening ‘real racism’ when it comes to racism against black people. Neither seem to listen to the majority, and the majority of Jews think there’s an issue with antisemitism, but it gets brushed under the carpet. Just as with the right and finding a minority voice among black people, the left can find a comparative minority voice among Jews to try and distort claims of antisemitism. Meanwhile, NGO members, university academics and activists yap about Zionist cabals controlling the media, denial of atrocities on Oct 7th, how Hitler had a point and how Jews are an evil oppressor class and this gets ignored and/or deemed to be ‘legitimate criticism of Israel’. You only have to go on any piece from someone criticising antisemitism to see people just mock Jews, pour scorn and think they’re doing anything but proving the point their critics make (see Stephen Fry’s Christmas message and the reaction to that from the ‘anti-racists’).

[Iron Age]

Is it anti British to criticise our government? I’m sure they’d like to think so.

[Siderite]

No, but it would be anti-British to say that the British government is a nefarious puppeteering force who controls the media and is made out to be more evil than it is.

[Iron Age]

I’m pretty certain that this lot would love to control the media, hence the campaign against the BBC.
Or am I being un British?

[Siderite]

Who’s this lot?

[Iron Age]

The Tories, who else?
They control most of the media and would dearly love to control all of it.
Talking of controlling the media, try looking at Israeli TV news.

[Siderite]

Same could be said for many.

Same could be said for Palestinian media, but this is really irrelevant to conspiracies about Jewish control of the media that have existed for decades and continue to propagate among many on the left, far-right and some Islamic sources. It’s nothing more than antisemitism and is not ‘legitimate criticism of Israel’. And, no, they’re not saying some Israeli network has bias, it’s outright conspiracies about Israelis/Zionists/Jews controlling the media.

[Iron Age]

I take it you haven’t watched some Israeli TV news.
I’m against governments controlling media, judiciary and police. We see it in too many countries, including those who claim to be democratic, even here when our current government attacks our judiciary through the media.
Look back at the Ridley Plan to see how the Tories wished to use the state by underhanded methods.
It happens everywhere, including Israel.

[Siderite]

Eh? I said nothing about Israeli TV news being unbiased in any way. My point is that it’s not unique to Israel and not to do with the point related to the thread regarding antisemitism about Jewish control of the media. Kanye West and other dim wits rambling on about Jewish control of the media has sod all to do with rational criticism of Israeli TV bias. It’s not ‘legitimate criticism of Israel’.

[Heath]

Meanwhile at least 165 Palestinians have been killed and 250 injured in the last 24 hours.

[Siderite]

That’s similar to what Tommy Robinson says about bigotry towards Muslims after Islamic inspired terrorist attacks. The actions of Israel or Islamists do not diminish bigotry towards Jews or Muslims.

I am also appalled by the rise of anti-Muslim actions recently. BBC covered that too. It’s appalling and talking about what the IDF or Hamas are doing does not make it less of a concern.

[Iron Age]

In the meantime.

Israel’s finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, reportedly called for the return of Jewish settlers to the Gaza Strip after the war and said Gaza’s Palestinian population should be encouraged to emigrate. “To have security, we must control the territory,” Smotrich told Israel’s Army Radio in response to a question about the prospect of re-establishing settlements in Gaza. “In order to control the territory militarily for a long time, we need a civilian presence.”

[Deereyme66]

Incredible Siderite. Robert Peston expresses his opinion as a Jew but you almost completely dismiss it.

[Siderite]

I didn’t realise he was the spokesperson for all Jews. Most other Jews think differently, but they can be dismissed because Peston is Jewish?

Other Jews are fed up of living in fear, but Peston’s not, so I guess it’s ok and ‘overblown’ then.

[Siderite]

If Peston is speaking as a Jew makes his opinions beyond criticism, then the Jewish nature of those who disagree should too. Problem is that this creates a contradiction, which shows it’s flawed logic. We can listen to the majority voice and think about how such actions affect Jews, and there have been many prominent examples of things like this:

DOWNING ST CENTRAL LONDON YESTERDAY

"The occupiers are harvesting Palestinian organs" pic.twitter.com/QStJTC0QRP

— Harry's Place (@hurryupharry) December 31, 2023

This is blatant antisemitism as unfounded claims that Jews harvest organs is a variation of the blood libel used to slam Jews. It’s not ‘legitimate criticism of Israel’, it’s just demonising Jews. Criticising it is not trying to silence critique of Israel, yet when I speak of this, many of the left make this kind of rubbish which has increased is somehow silencing critique of Israel. This is what many are finding objectionable about Peston’s tweet, and his Jewish status doesn’t make it any less disagreeable. Other Jews would say differently. He’s of course welcome to his opinion, but I am welcome to disagree.

[Heath]

Preston acknowledged that antisemitism is on the rise, so I don’t get why you are dismissing his point. Dragging up an example of antisemitism does not add anything to your argument.

[Siderite]

I realise I mixed up there, but his point is also that criticism of Israel is being mixed up, which seems a strange priority given the huge rise in antisemitism cases and how many argue cases (like the example) are ‘legitimate criticism of Israel’. Hence the ‘dragging’ up of examples, because if I didn’t you might say that I am conflating legitimate criticism of Israel with antisemitism. So, yes, it does in my opinion. I wasn’t ‘dragging them up’ as part of the argument in my initial admittedly flawed response.

[Deereyme66]

Funny you should mention conflation Siderite. Exactly what I was thinking.

[Deereyme66]

‘how Hitler had a point’. Oh aye, how many university academics are saying that? BS.

[Deereyme66]

‘Meanwhile, NGO members, university academics and activists yap about Zionist cabals controlling the media, denial of atrocities on Oct 7th, how Hitler had a point and how Jews are an evil oppressor class’

And with one clean sweep of the brush…legitimate criticism is demonised. Hello Donald.

[Deereyme66]

‘I didn’t realise he was the spokesperson for all Jews. Most other Jews think differently, but they can be dismissed because Peston is Jewish?’

Gaslighting. ‘Most other Jews think differently.’ WTF is this? Bucks MK2??

[Siderite]

Deereyme66 wrote:

‘Meanwhile, NGO members, university academics and activists yap about Zionist cabals controlling the media, denial of atrocities on Oct 7th, how Hitler had a point and how Jews are an evil oppressor class’

And with one clean sweep of the brush…legitimate criticism is demonised. Hello Donald.

I didn’t realise these examples were ‘legitimate criticism of Israel’. I wasn’t using this to criticise people like IronAge for saying Israeli TV has bias. I am using it to criticise the specific antisemites, but it is impossible to call that out because you would just say that this is demonising ‘legitimate criticism of Israel’.

Meanwhile, university academics on twitter have said such comments about Jews, made calls in support of the ‘resiistance’ on Oct 7th and deans have said that calls for genocide of Jews are not necessarily antisemitic. Yet ‘the problem’ are those calling out this blatant antisemitism, not the antisemitism itself. Talk about gaslighting. There are plenty of ways to criticise Israel and I am not calling that out as antisemitic. Iron-Awe said that Netanyahu is a right wing maniac who is callous with human life. I agree, and that isn’t antisemitic, nor is this what I am talking about. However, behind those making more sensible criticism are the antisemites and it is not ‘gaslighting’ to criticise them, especially when it is highly relevant to the point being discussed.

It’s relevant to talk about what other Jews think, given you were claiming Peston’s Jewishness was being dismissed when I have seen several Jews disagree with him. If I was to agree with him, I would be dismissing them ‘as Jews’. The point is that this was an illogical argument. I am just disagreeing, it’s haerdly ‘Bucks mark 2’ to do so and I am not the one gaslighting. You are complaining about making broad brush comments, but I am not, yet you are doing so with me trying to make out I am criticising anyone critical of Israel. I am not.

[Heath]

I have read and re-read the article by Bernie Steinberg and can find no such “comment about Jews” or “support of the ‘resiistance’ on Oct 7th”.

None of your points above are relevant to the specific article or Peston’s comments. Obvious conflation.

[Siderite]

I wasn’t referring to Steinberg.

It is relevant when Peston has posted a comment talking about worrying about antisemitism being conflated with criticism of Israel. Such comments are made by many who minimise antisemitic examples that I have posted. Peston made no attempt to specify this and shared a piece which minimises the problem from the left. Antisemitism has risen by 1300% in London and I doubt that this is because of conflation between ‘legitimate criticism of Israel’ and antisemitism. The examples become pertinent to demonstrate that I am not speaking about legitimate criticism of Israel in actuality. Yet you call that conflaiton, and I think it’s just because you disagree with me, personally.

Like I have said, it’s an odd priority for anyone who cares about racial discrimination to focus on anything but racial discrimination. The real problem is the ‘conflation’ apparently. Sounds like right wingers complaining about such with racism towards black people, tbh.

[Deereyme66]

‘university academics on twitter have said such comments about Jews, made calls in support of the ‘resiistance’ on Oct 7th and deans have said that calls for genocide of Jews are not necessarily antisemitic.’

Who has said this? I don’t spend much time on Twitter, too many individuals playing one upmanship, taking part in pile ons, kangaroo courts and gotchas. How many uni academics are saying such and are they truly representative of a general body of university academics? I suspect not.

[Siderite]

The deans of Harvard, Princeton and Yale made the last comment about genocide towards Jews. UCL academics signed a motion supporting ‘a global intifada’, several student societies signed support of 7th Oct ‘resistance’, including Harvard, Cambridge and Oxford, I believe. Nothing was done about it. Some of those taking down photos of Israeli hostages turned out to be PhD students or sometimes lecturers. I am not saying it’s all, but there are too high a number that would see criticism if it was racial discrimination against another group. These are just some of the examples from the top of my head. All of it is contributing to a climate of antisemitism.

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Just Iron

[Deereyme66]

Okay, I’m not remotely suggesting that antisemitism is not on the rise and neither is Peston or Steinberg, so I don’t get why you are so dismissive of legitimate criticism of Israel’s appaling ongoing actions. As Steinberg says:

‘If Israel’s cause is just, let it speak eloquently in its own defense. It is very telling that some of Israel’s own supporters instead go to extraordinary lengths to utterly silence the other side. Smearing one’s opponents is rarely a tactic employed by those confident that justice is on their side. If Israel’s case requires branding its critics antisemites, it is already conceding defeat.’

[Deereyme66]

I honestly think this claim you made in response to the Peston Tweet is a sweeping generalisation:

‘Many of those claiming this end up silencing the rise of antisemitism.’

I’m also interested know exactly which academics have said ‘Hitler had a point’, as you posted.

[Heath]

“Antisemitism has risen by 1300% in London”.

And Palestinian deaths, disease and famine has increased by a greater amount in Gaza. A definite ongoing cause of your antisemitism concern.

[Author]

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