Humanitarian pause , Zionist style

[Iron Age]

Siderite wrote:

Segal isn’t without huge bias and absurd claims. A fan of claims of Jews weaponising the Holocaust and then wondering why people react badly towards him.

An American Israeli, who writes about the Holocaust, with huge bias?
Not sure how to take that.

[Siderite]

I see. Thomas Sowell, who is black, has an issue with how liberals and anti-racist activists see racism in the USA*. He can’t be wrong about that because he’s black.

There are plenty of other Jewish Holocaust historians, including the Auschwitz Institute, who disagree with him. Do they become wrong because another one says something different? I think his claims are wrong and comments to be biased.

*I do not have much agreement with him on this or other topics.

[Siderite]

In reflection, I will change “he can’t be wrong” to “he can’t be biased.”

[Iron Age]

It’s not only the Hamas terrorists that quote scriptural text (or should I say misquote?)
Netanyahu also picks texts from the Torah when he talks of the destruction of the Amalekites.
The hatred going both ways is astonishing, inhuman.

[Siderite]

I can find some agreement there. Netanyahu, and his more ideologically minded allies (Netanyahu is more of a grifter than a hard ideologue, in my opinion) are bad news. There is a worrying trend of that recently, as seen with Netherlands and Argentina lately.

[Deereyme66]

‘some of the standards have fallen way short of acceptable’

Is that an excuse to crucify them on social media, to mock and criticise them, as many are doing? As far as I can see, it’s using the internet to engage in silly tit for tat one upmanship that undermines the seriousness of the situation and smacks of discrediting journalists and media outlets with an ulterior motive. But that is just my opinion. However, I find it as distasteful as elements of the pro-Palestininian rhetoric

[Deereyme66]

‘Netanyahu, and his more ideologically minded allies (Netanyahu is more of a grifter than a hard ideologue, in my opinion) are bad news.’

That’s an big understatement IMO. I can’t see there being a two state solution with their continual support of aggressive far right settlers in the West Bank, even if Hamas were destroyed

[Siderite]

Well, when people see something as outlandish being reported, they will resort to mockery, satire and sarcasm. Just as when Fox News, RT or some other generally more disreputable outlet makes ridiculous footage. Mockery may not be polite, but I would rather live with the ability to mock than not and criticism should certainly be allowed. Some people may take it too far and not engage with another story because of an error elsewhere, but the greatest damage comes from journalists making these bad errors in the first place.

It does create scepticism when they make future claims if unaddressed. Reputable scientific journals place a large weight on ensuring material published is robust because one dodgy paper can cause scepticism on what else is published, rightly or wrongly. High standards for this and journalism should be expected.

[Siderite]

Deereyme66 wrote:

‘Netanyahu, and his more ideologically minded allies (Netanyahu is more of a grifter than a hard ideologue, in my opinion) are bad news.’

That’s an big understatement IMO. I can’t see there being a two state solution with their continual support of aggressive far right settlers in the West Bank, even if Hamas were destroyed

Aye, which is one reason why I said Netanyahu and Likud need booting out on the last page.

[Deereyme66]

You might agree that ‘bad news’ is an understatement then? Apologies for forgetting a post from 5 days ago.

[Iron Age]

The tragedy of tragedies is that the poor victims of the slaughter in Southern Israel were no friend of Netanyahu, they despised him and his kind.

[Deereyme66]

High standards in science snd journalism should be expected, yes. However, unbiased journalists aren’t perfect and mistakes may be made. At their peril it seems, as plenty of folk are out there waiting for them to screw up and join a pile on or take sides. I’m sure some do it for likes and kudos

[Siderite]

I think the mistakes are too one sided to be anything but bias. As for saying bad news, I don’t see what’s wrong with that. Complaining over the term bad news seems a bit pedantic really. It reminds me of when Bucks had a go at me for not agreeing with him strongly enough.

I mean, I specifically called Likud fascists the other day, which shows my opinion of them, so I don’t really know how I can make opposition to be stronger. I don’t expect people to recall everything, but it gets wearisome facing demands over that continuously.

[Deereyme66]

I’m not ‘complaining’ about how you used the term ‘bad news’, I’m making an observation about how you used it. Seemed to be downplaying, but hey, don’t let that stop a convenient comparison to Bucks’ pedantry. Wearisome? Yeah, tell me about it. Bias? I suggested you were demonstrating bias weeks ago and have seen very little since to change my mind about that. But that is just my opinion.

[Siderite]

I can say the same to be honest given that saying bad news is apparently not strong enough. I don’t think it’s ‘downplaying’ to say they are bad, which is what I meant. If saying they are bad is my bias, then I don’t actually think it’s my bias on show.

But that’s par the course. There are, frankly, biased opinions about genocide and such. Yet that gets ignored, but trying to tone it down and counter this with similar examples shows my bias. If only I was so reasoned as the ‘reasonable’ and drone on about how Israel is something akin to the Nazis.

[Deereyme66]

No one has said Israel is akin to the Nazi’s on here. I do see on here a number of perfectly reasonable posters, occasionaly asking questions and raising concerns about the actions of the Israeli government and forces, occasionally citing commentators on the conflict, and you, in particular, undermining them and their thoughts on the subject. It happens frequently and quite quickly and IMO, quietens those people in a partronising tone (the use of *sigh* for instance). That’s where I see bias. As for your last sentence, that’s just silly and an example of the ‘one upmanship’ I mentioned before. Shame you’re resorting to the same ‘strawmanning’ you frequently bemoan on here.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Heath

[Siderite]

I am not sure how I am supposed to see it when people claim Israel are committing genocide. Ludicrous bias and is making them sound akin to Nazis.

I am allowed to disagree, it’s hardly undermining to disagree with comments making out the Palestinians in shackles were in shackles for no reason. Heck, I wasn’t even irritated when I said about what I had put a week ago, but nope, not good enough.
Not ‘reasoned’ enough for those who recommend wonky sources like Segal. This is all my opinion, of course, I don’t think I am superior to anyone, but will air my disagreement. It’s not meant to undermine, it’s meant to express my disagreement and why. I don’t expect me to be the ‘genius’ who shows everyone how wrong they are, I am nothing special, but as this is a discussion I will share when I find something wrong.

[Siderite]

Oh no, I use sighs to express frustration. If only I shared the right opinion on this to act like such with impunity.

Accusations of genocide here when not used against other nations who have done similar is not reasonable in my opinion.

[Deereyme66]

‘Oh no, I use sighs to express frustration. If only I shared the right opinion on this to act like such with impunity.’

Carry on with that strawmanning. Sigh…

[Deereyme66]

It’s all about opinions Siderite, unless you think you’re right about all that you post on this subject? Hence the ‘frustration’ you mention perhaps? People just want to express their opinion, particularly on the humanitarian aspect of civilians in Gaza. It’s still strangely responded to like it’s a secondary issue.

[Siderite]

I do not think I am right about everything, others are fair to disagree. Heck, I have admitted to such on here and can do again. I was wrong to call for a second referendum on here, for instance, because it was a pipe dream that served no-one. I think maybe I am too sarcastic a lot, which I will stop now, but I am not obliged to agree. So gotchas there won’t work.

I can argue that the civilian tragedy is bad until I am blue in the face, but it won’t matter. My point has been what is the alternative to conflict and I have had that thrown at me when bemoaning anti-Semitism. No matter what happens in Gaza, it’s not an excuse for Jews to be targeted or made to feel unwelcome. Unfortunately many do, and the suffering of Palestinians in Gaza does not justify it, so answering with that does nothing but demonstrate bias for me.

As for sighing, I have used it twice recently, and was in response to comments from others I found troublesome for misrepresentation of arguments. It was an expression of my opinion, nothing more, and not meant to silence. My rule of thumb is that I can post disagreements, but don’t expect any other to fall in line. I can’t expect that, but I can express my own opinion nevertheless. Less sardonically in future.

[Deereyme66]

I would hope no one expects another to ‘fall in line’ tbh. Of course people should express their opinions, within the general rules of the forum. Thankfully that includes no abuse, like one sees on other social media platforms.

[Heath]

“I am allowed to disagree, it’s hardly undermining to disagree with comments making out the Palestinians in shackles were in shackles for no reason”.

I never said they were detained for no reason. But some of the children are 14 and are detained for indefinite periods in adult military jails for throwing stones.

It was you who escalated their so-called offences to attempted murder.

Your responses show you are biased, and do not reflect your previous positions on other armed conflicts. You call out the Israeli leaders, but then seem to support every action they are taking.

[Siderite]

You asked why they were ‘in shackles’ when they were teenagers as if they had no reason to be in custody, which is not the case. Yes, some for attempted murder (but not all). I used a more extreme, but clarified later. I think there was bias on show in how you spoke of it, because it assumed ill reason for them to be in custody, when all offenses would find juveniles imprisoned elsewhere.

I have not claimed to be a pacifist and would not. It is not dissimilar to my position other conflicts, like WWII, Korea and other conflicts I think are justifiable. When terrorists commit a pogrom I can only see conflict as inevitable and the fault of Hamas. No hypocrisy there.

I cannot comment on everything about the conflict, because I do not know everything, so it’s hard for me to make specific examples of Israeli wrongdoing in terms of targets. I do think it was telling that there were a lot of complaints about the existence of tunnels, but that seems to have been goalpost shifted on social media now the tunnels are becoming strongly evident. As for Netanyahu in this war, I wish his government didn’t make such incendiary and horrendous remarks, arm settlers in the West Bank and do not like his comments about territorial gain. I have condemned that before, do now and think he needs to be reigned in.

[Siderite]

WWII and Korea justifiable from the US-UK perspective, obviously!

Deereyme66 wrote:

I would hope no one expects another to ‘fall in line’ tbh. Of course people should express their opinions, within the general rules of the forum. Thankfully that includes no abuse, like one sees on other social media platforms.

I realise being sarcstic didn’t help me, and maybe I sometimes react too emotionally to them. I am not self-unaware, but I still think there’s a bias here which isn’t held elsewhere. People hold the opposite opinion, meh, doesn’t bother me. Though, when faced with accusations that I am frustrated that people don’t agree with me, I am going to make it clear that it’s not about ‘falling into line’. It’s a hot topic and bound to create emotive reactions, but I still don’t see what’s bad about calling Netanyahu and his gang of crooks bad news and wasn’t meaning to be snide when I pointed out why I said I wanted him gone in a previous post. I was trying to give context and agreement on that.

[Deereyme66]

‘When terrorists commit a pogrom I can only see conflict as inevitable and the fault of Hamas.’

I understand that. But most if not all these Palestinian’s were imprisoned before 7 Oct for West Bank activity. Numerous independent humanitarian agencies have been raising this is as a concern. Many people like me are only finding out about it now (not that we should feel bad about that, we can’t know everything). I don’t understand why you seem so perturbed that people might concerned about. I don’t see how whataboutery is constructive.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Heath

[Siderite]

I have worries about many of the humanitarian agencies now after they claimed there were no weapons or armed men at Al-Shifa, but CCTV footage and stashed weapons show that to be a lie, so UNRWA, MSF and others didn’t tell the truth. OK, it might be because they were under duress, I get that, but it does create a crisis of confidence.

That said, I understand it’s complex and some might say the sentences are harsh, that Israeli security are strong with use of guns to rock throwers. There are arguments there, fair, but there was a reason they were detained and found the original post today to be not clear on that. It made it sound like there was no reason behind it at all.

A lot of it is worrying about where this country is going. I am seeing synagogues graffitied, anti-Semitic placards, ripping down of hostage posters etc, and all defended as if it’s legitimate criticism of Israel. Most Jews see it as an attack on them, and don’t feel safe in this country any more. I find that sad and worrying; maybe I am seeing this and becoming ultra-defensive as a result. However, I do feel like any other minority group would get more support. After Islamist terror people urge others not to use that against Muslims, and rightfully so, yet here we have people from prominent positions (including universities) justifying discrimination against Jews.

[Deereyme66]

Do your concerns about humanitarian agencies include UNICEF, who’ve been very critical, not so much the sentencing itself but the treatment when they’re imprisoned? And, you have no idea of the actual circumstances and context of their arrests. You have no idea whether their incarceration was fair or not.

[Deereyme66]

Why are you bringing what’s happening to Jews and synagogues in the UK in to this discussion about Palestinian prisoners? Everyone on this forum will find that situation unacceptable and abhorrent.

[Siderite]

It didn’t seem that way when it was being discussed on another thread from some quarters. As I said, I mentioned that because I was explaining why I was ‘perturbed’ by this and how I see this conflict being used by some elsewhere to justify their anti-Semitism and hounding of Jews.

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