Humanitarian pause , Zionist style

[Deereyme66]

‘It’s not the arguments about the way the war is being conducted, but what I see as an unfair skew which does not understand the side they disagree with.’

That is the point I was trying to make. Anyway, your call, of course.

[Deereyme66]

I can only speak for myself, but yours and JI’s posts on this subject increasingly make me feel like I ought to shut up because I’m clearly not as educated about it or as embroiled on social media about it. Do you think that’s constructive or healthy?

[Siderite]

*sighs* I guess arguing that I understand that many who disagree stand for peace, even if misguided in my opinion, is truly pointless. I will forever be the ogre who just wants to demonise.

[Siderite]

Deereyme66 wrote:

I can only speak for myself, but yours and JI’s posts on this subject increasingly make me feel like I ought to shut up because I’m clearly not as educated about it or as embroiled on social media about it. Do you think that’s constructive or healthy?

I am just giving my opinion and disagreements. I am not this ogre who sees himself above anyone. I find it wearying to just give opinions and be told that it’s bad because others disagree. I don’t think I am some great shakes, I am just an opinionated gobshite on a soapbox. I have my opinions and believe I have a right to give them, realise others disagree, and so be it. I don’t think you or IA (as I was saying in my response to JI) are lesser than me in intellectual capacity or morality. I am just giving my opinion. I try and rail against a general opinion I see, because I don’t like accusing individuals of malice when I am railing against a common theme I find troublesome among one group of people. Of course I fail in these principles at times, because I have flaws. I do my best to try and rectify and think where I went wrong in a discussion or with anything in life. However, if I see a problematic aspect among a group in general, I think it is important to call it out.

Yes, including among those who have agreements with me on this or other issues. I saw one pro-Israeli guy say we should deport all Muslims in response to anti-Semitism on our streets. Of course I will not shirk in saying that I find that disgusting and those who make such comments to be wrong, no matter their stance. I agree with you on much else regarding politics and hot topics, but won’t on everything. It doesn’t mean I think you’re bad or who I am referencing to when I am bemoaning anti-Semitism among Palestinian activists or whatever.

[Iron-awe]

So anyway back to my first post today, Israeli bombs now being dropped in South Gaza despite Palestinians being told by Israel to go there whilst they flushed out Hamas in the North but spoiler alert, Israel are flushing them out in the South despite asking innocent Palestinians to go there to find refuge. Perfectly understandable reasoning from Israel I can see where JI and Siderite are now coming from. When reasoning and facts are portrayed as straw manning then I guess sarcasm is all that remains, sleep tight everyone, unlike some innocent Palestinians in Gaza there is a very good chance most of us on this forum will wake up tomorrow .

[Siderite]

Yeah, that’s what I was disagreeing with. Well done.

[Iron-awe]

Just say you think Israel murdering innocent people is wrong, you won’t lose face you won’t be hounded down you will just appear to sympathise with their intolerable situation without reverting to ” yeah but no but ” etc etc. Doesn’t do you any credit whatsoever Siderite.

[Siderite]

I think civilian casualties are a horrendous loss and travesty. I think it should be minimised and if Israel have not been doing that, it’s not good enough.

Just as with Tigray conflict, Yemen, Syria, Myanmar and all the other conflicts the world’s most moral people don’t really care about.

[Heath]

Siderite, I think it is you who is taking a different stance on the murder of Palestinians and genocide in other war zones Innocent people are being killed in their thousands, yet you and JI downplay this by blaming the BBC. Yet you seem to believe everything the Israelis say. Time to lower your Ukraine flag.

By the way, I haven’t read anyone trying to defend the actions of Hamas.

[Siderite]

I don’t remember Ukraine going into Russia to slaughter innocents. That incident passed me by.

I can say it again and again that the death of innocent Palestinians is horrible, but fat load of good it will do me. I will still get snide attacks from you. I haven’t said you support Hamas by the way, but nice straw man.

[Siderite]

Russia started the Ukraine war with an invasion because they were threatened by a Ukraine that was outside of their sphere of influence. Hamas started this war with Israel by breaking the ceasefire. These are not the same thing, so I don’t see any hypocrisy. Not once have I said that the loss of life isn’t tragic. I put a lot of blame on Hamas, because I do not see how Israel can do anything but respond. This is what I have defended. I have also defended us going into WWII and invading Germany to defeat the Nazis, despite the death to civilians it caused through our actions, so sue me.

Also, no, bemoaning rubbish coverage does not say anything about this either way. No matter what, I’d like better coverage than claiming Israel were targeting aid workers when the report it was based on said nothing of the such.

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bartonscorpion

[Heath]

Thanks for your responses. We just don’t agree on this do we!

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Siderite

[Siderite]

No, and honestly that’s fine. I realise it’s a divisive and complex topic. I reiterate that I understand that the civilian casualties are tragic. I put a lot of blame for that on Hamas because they put Israel in a situation where it was accept hostages are taken and potentially allow an Oct 7th repeat or war, which always leads to civilian casualties. This doesn’t make Israel perfect and I am well aware and feel worried about things like the West Bank actions, comments from Likud members and Netanyahu potentially prolonging the conflict for territorial gains.

I do apologise for reacting. I admittedly get wearied by some comments, but shouldn’t have worded some of the above as I did. My comments on media bias were meant as a comment on what JI said, not as a means to detract from civilian casualties, and I felt the need to defend my comments after 64’s post, since it wasn’t because of civilian casualties being reported. I will reflect and try and not make accusations about things like not commenting on responses to other conflicts when responding to people specifically. That was unfair. Though, I do feel this conflict does get a lot of airtime compared to them in the news and activist circles, and question why. Not like that means we shouldn’t care, but seeing a lot of the protesters and activists take the position of moral arbiters is frustrating when they don’t care about other issues. Even more so when I know some of the people and organisations involved ignore or deny the problems of other conflicts.

Still, that doesn’t mean I should treat others based off Stop the War and co. I do apologise for that.

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Heath

[Deereyme66]

I get from media coverage that many Israeli families who have hostages of Hamas, that they are not happy with their government’s strategy to safeguard / rescue them. How does keeping on saying ‘it could all end if Hamas releases them’ provide a suitable solution?

[Siderite]

Some aren’t because they are concerned about Netanyahu’s government not doing enough to release them. Others have said they support the need for war previously. I do not envy them and sympathise with their concerns, and am not a military expert so I am not going to say they are wrong in their worries over the strategy.

If the hostages are released it removes a large pretext for war, so without it it increases the chances of the war ending, certainly with international pressure. While there are still hostages conflict doesn’t really stand much chance of going away.

[Deereyme66]

Agree with your second paragraph though I do think ‘this could all end if the hostages were released’ is very simplistic and it wouldn’t be the end of it in any case. Hopefully a longer term solution can be reached, but seems impossible.

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Siderite

[Siderite]

Yes, I realise that. It’s too complex and Israel might not rest until Hamas is destroyed, and I cannot fault that motivation. With Likud and Netanyahu they might not rest until territorial gain, which would cause me to disagree. It would be a step towards an end at the very least.

I do want a two-state solution. It needs to be peaceful; my own thinking is that long term peace is not possible with Hamas. Many want a ceasefire, and I don’t doubt the motivations of many, but I don’t see how that leads to long-term peace. There was one until October 7th and Hamas say they will continue to fight Israel, so if we have another there will likely be more conflict in the near future with more destruction and misery. Israelis, including the liberals, will argue that is it fair that they have to continue to contend with such extremist groups. I get that Israel has made mistakes and cause issues with Palestinians with some of their own actions, like in the West Bank, but the most optimal solution to other cases of friction between a stronger power and weaker one have had more optimal solutions politically, not through violent resistance. I think this would be more likely to yield a two-state solution than more intifadas and jihad. Similarly, I recognise that Israel needs to elect more moderate politicians to bring this about too, but at least Likud and Netanyahu can be voted out.

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Deereyme66

[Heath]

“Hopefully a longer term solution can be reached, but seems impossible”.

Particularly because there will be nothing left other than wasteland and graves.

[Heath]

The ceasefire is welcome as will be the release of hostages. But why are there hundreds of Palestinian children in shackles in Israeli military jails available to trade for the hostages?

[Siderite]

I wonder why Israel criminalises people for crimes like attempted murder.

I see Hamas are already firing rockets, but no doubt Israel will be at fault if it breaks.

[Heath]

“I wonder why Israel criminalises people for crimes like attempted murder”.

You didn’t answer the question unless you have evidence that all these children have been jailed for attempted murder.

[Siderite]

I would say that saying they’re imprisoned because of criminal activity is answering the question. It’s hardly a secret, it has been detailed in the news that the prisoners are jailed for crimes like attempted stabbings, handling explosives, arson and throwing rocks. Some are more minor than others, but all are crimes and would be considered crimes elsewhere. Expecting Israel not to criminalise those, including juveniles, is holding them to a different standard as any other country (including ourselves, who would imprison anyone for any of these things). I do have to question why the hideous crime of Israel imprisoning those for committing crimes is evil when it isn’t for anyone else, unless the argument is that the UK and other countries should decriminalise assault, arson and attempted murder.

[Deereyme66]

‘https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/22/middleeast/palestinian-prisoners-potential-release-intl-cmd/index.html’

Thought that was an interesting article. Wouldn’t be surprised to see a withering put down about CNN reporting or their journalists, to add to other news outlets who question the actions of the Israeli government and forces. It’s a big old list including The Guardian and BBC. No questions here please.

[Siderite]

I don’t really see how that really changes much to be honest. There seems to be some equivocation going on online between the prisoners and Israeli hostages. While I can understand why from some on social media, given some seem to have gone all in on how Israel is the most irredeemable state ever, it really isn’t. Those who are charged or convicted of crimes are not the same as people abducted from their homes. Even if the crimes of many are minor, they’re still crimes which would see them go to prison elsewhere.

There’d be a lot less questioning of the BBC and Guardian if they didn’t make errors, like misquoting articles or Kay Burley of Sky for asking if Israel views Palestinians less because they are releasing 3 Palestinians for one Israeli. I can’t even warp my brain into thinking how that was portrayed as “evil Israel”; that’s a positive deal for Palestinians, and people wonder why the media get stick over this.

[Deereyme66]

It doesn’t really change much, it’s an article I found interesting. But then I’m not particularly interested in routine ‘gotchas’ of media outlets or a propaganda war on social media populated with people desperately trying to out do each other.

[Siderite]

I am not really interested in gotchas of the media, I don’t want them to be poor to catch them out. I want them to be as impartial as possible and be about evidence, and some of the standards have fallen way short of acceptable. Like Kay’s partisan questioning yesterday which displayed huge bias and stupidity.

I am aware of the ‘defund the BBC’ mob who will target the BBC no matter what, and similar with other outlets. The best the media outlets can do is to not give them ammunition, but most importantly to strive to be the best they can be, instead of falling down the rabbit holes which make ‘alternative media’ so poor.

[Iron Age]

Historian Prof Raz Segal has some interesting thoughts about the situation.

[Siderite]

Segal isn’t without huge bias and absurd claims. A fan of claims of Jews weaponising the Holocaust and then wondering why people react badly towards him.

[Heath]

Shame the Israelis didn’t detain for questioning the single disabled young man who was throwing stones at a distance of 150m from a group of Israeli guards. They murdered him.

[Siderite]

They should have detained that example, and there would be no arguments there about that from me.

It’s also a shame that there is radicalisation in Palestinian society which helps cause this conflict. You only have to look at Tomorrow’s Pioneers telling kids to become martyrs and that Jews are the enemy to be eliminated or that their bunny character eats Jews.

[Author]

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