Good lads, got to love the IDF

[64]

Everyone in Israel knows what’s happening ,every Israeli ambassador knows what’s happening, only our press seem scared to say it
They all support a regime intent on murder and ethnic cleansing,
“I support Israel”
Let’s face it,we should be doing a regime change .Worse than Saddam and we know if they lose our support he’ll jump into the arms of Putin .his big mate

[Siderite]

Just wait until you hear what they chant on the other side, including on our streets. Globalise the intifada? Well, that’s been heard with terror plots against synagogues and Jewish sites.

Worse than Saddam? That’s one way of knowing this is just ideological bias. He actually ordered the killings of civilians, not the horrific effects of war, which were just the same when US forces struck Iraq and Syria when defeating ISIS (which had an estimated worse civilian casualty ratio according to one US general involved with that). Netanyahu can and will likely be given the boot. Thank goodness. Saddam and Hamas couldn’t or can’t, because there was no notion of a democracy there.

The irony is that a regime change against Hamas is what should be happening, but suggesting that makes one suspect to the left, who aren’t taking sides, but suggesting such against Israel. Personally, I think both should go.

[Siderite]

Oh, and I agree that such chanting by those soldiers is abhorrent, the soldiers involved need to face discipline. The mindset is horrible, and needs to be stamped out, but is not unique among many in such situations. The IDF have said that it violates their values, which is not something you’d find among Hamas or Saddam’s army. Their actions went beyond disgusting words with regards to genocidal intent and massacring of civilians, and not through warfare.

[Iron Age]

64 wrote:

<iframe title=”WATCH: Israeli Soldiers Chant About Wiping Out Palestinians” src=”https://www.youtube.com/embed/-wY6GKu6jBc?start=78&feature=oembed&#8221; frameborder=”0″ allow=”accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share” allowfullscreen=”” id=”fitvid0″></iframe>

Everyone in Israel knows what’s happening ,every Israeli ambassador knows what’s happening, only our press seem scared to say it
They all support a regime intent on murder and ethnic cleansing,
“I support Israel”
Let’s face it,we should be doing a regime change .Worse than Saddam and we know if they lose our support he’ll jump into the arms of Putin .his big mate

Heard Jeremy Bowen on the radio saying you wouldn’t believe what’s coming out on social media and TV.
So I had a quick look and came up with the following, seems like an alternative reality.

https://iltv.tv/catalog

[Heath]

“He actually ordered the killings of civilians”.

He might not have publicly ordered it, but he’s doing it all the same.

Dowden trotted out the same meaningless phrase “we expect the Israelis to use restraint” this morning.

They aren’t are they. This Government is supporting massacre and genocide. And given the weeks since our last “chat”, so are you.

[Siderite]

Intent is important when determining who’s worse. Every war has civilian casualties, including WWII, Korea, our actions against ISIS. More German civilians died than British. More civilians died from US and UK military action than from ISIS. Yet that doesn’t make us worse than Saddam, Adolf or ISIS. None of us were engaged in genocide of Kurds, Jews, Roma or Yezidis, along with creating global terror and oppression of others.

[Deereyme66]

‘Dowden trotted out the same meaningless phrase “we expect the Israelis to use restraint” this morning.

They aren’t are they.’

Seemingly being ignored.

[Heath]

Stop trying to justify the mindless killing of civilians by comparing this with other wars. You failed to compare in to Syria, Ukraine and multiple massacres in Africa.

The idea that the Israelis have any intention to agreeing to a 2 state solution was quashed this week.

Stop trying to justify it. The intention all along was to drive the Palestinians out of Gaza.

Gloomy prediction for you. This war will lead to the ultimate destruction of the state of Israel. The thing you don’t want.

[Siderite]

I am comparing the civilian casualties to other wars, because the cause of the civilian casualties is the same as other wars.

“The idea that the Israelis have any intention to agreeing to a 2 state solution was quashed this week.”

The two state solution was damaged on the 7th October to a point beyond repair. I do not think Netanyahu wants it either, but it isn’t on the table with Hamas. With the existence of Hamas there never will be a second state.

“Stop trying to justify it. The intention all along was to drive the Palestinians out of Gaza.”

I am justifying why there is conflict, which was caused by Hamas. Just because you want or don’t care about Israel being bombarded, they won’t just accept it.

“This war will lead to the ultimate destruction of the state of Israel. The thing you don’t want.”

Meanwhile, Hamas are losing and the Arab states secretly don’t want Hamas to win.

[Siderite]

Deereyme66 wrote:

‘Dowden trotted out the same meaningless phrase “we expect the Israelis to use restraint” this morning.

They aren’t are they.’

Seemingly being ignored.

Not really, I didn’t have much to say on it, because I have nothing against Dowden, Labour, Sanders or others saying such. They should, and should do more, especially if Netanyahu continues to move the aims away from a response to Oct 7th. There has been talk from Biden’s administration of moving away from support if so, and I agree with it.

The point is that the current situation is a conflict caused by Hamas. Civilian casualties are horrible, but are a feature of every single war. Most civilians killed have so far been a result of situations of war, just like others. Hence the comparisons to the conduct of the US, because to be consistent both would have to be opposed based on civilian casualties. If there was another way than war after Hamas broke ceasefire on Oct 7th, it would be great, but none have given one except for Israel should stop attacking and let Hamas bombard them and think they can successfully repeat Oct 7th, which is not feasible. I am not saying people want Oct 7th to repeat, but this is the situation for Israel. Hamas won’t stop firing missiles or attempting such no matter what. No other state would accept that.

Of course Israel is governed by its own gang of fascists, the IDF has likely had lapse screening for members under Netanyahu. This is all true, but doesn’t remove the need for Israel to defend itself. I realise I have been weak in condemning such from Israel before, but the reason for conflict is not on Israel. If it wasn’t for Hamas there would be no war. Some of the actions since have not been good from the IDF to say the least. However, there is more of a disciplinary process there than Hamas. There will and can be no peace with Hamas, they don’t want it, and Israel aren’t going to just accept it, no matter who’s ruling. The protests against Netanyahu are great to see, and he should go asap, but most Israelis wouldn’t accept having to deal with Hamas trying to kill their civilians in acts of provocation.

75 years of ‘resistance’, which has often translated to acts of murder against Jews and it has never and won’t bring peace. Many want a one state solution under Palestine, which will mean a likely genocide of Jews given Hamas’s beliefs. The only way for peace is for Hamas to go, followed by Netanyahu. The latter can be done democratically and looks far more likely.

Our conduct against ISIS wasn’t that much different. For example, ISIS embedded themselves in hospitals and schools and we did the same. We evacuated patients and destroyed the hospitals with their weapons supplies. Not that different to Israel.

[Deereyme66]

‘Not really, I didn’t have much to say on it’

I wasn’t referring to you.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Siderite

[Siderite]

No worries, my error!

I have stuff to do, so won’t make any more comments on this thread for a while at least, if at all. I understand the worries over it, of course, and agree that Netanyahu and Likud are making things worse. I do worry what their end goal would be, but think there’s enough international pressure to prevent a true annexation or at least it will lose them support. Still, I disagree that anyone but Hamas are the cause of the conflict and hope to see them gone, because true and meaningful peace isn’t possible with them. It will happen again and again and no country is going to sit back and accept attacks on them, with Netanyahu or someone more liberal. I also take care the comment about wanting Israel to be bombarded, because I think the issue is that there is a lack of thought over what happens to Israel, not actual desire.

[Just Iron]

Heath ..’stop this’ and ‘stop that’ !! How about you stop giving orders and being so full of your opinionated self and start making some reasoned contributions without simply denigrating Sideys unbelievably patient efforts to present am alternative perspective.
Your ‘gloomy prediction’ about Sidey getting what he doesn’t want … the destruction of Israel … seems to me to be the giveaway to what YOU would like to see. Ideologically bound … no real interest in the historical realities.. totally oblivious to the inconsistencies of your position. Now I remember why I find it a total waste of time making contributions on this topic.

[Deereyme66]

I don’t miss Bucksiron

[Heath]

Seems to me that you are the one giving orders. Feel free to do one.

[Heath]

“seems to me to be the giveaway to what YOU would like to see. Ideologically bound … no real interest in the historical realities”.

Seems to me you know sod all about me or my real interests. If you think that continuing to slaughter innocent civilians is going to make Israel more secure in the future, then you are truly blinkered.

[Deereyme66]

Read back on JI’s post a few times, still coming across like Mark Regev.

[Iron Age]

Well said Ben Wallace, my sentiments exactly.
Hard to stomach it coming from a Tory though.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/wallace-warns-netanyahu-over-killing-rage-in-gaza/ar-AA1lF4qi

[Deereyme66]

Agreed on his sentiments. Makes no difference to me if it was said by the left or right. It’s sense where it’s needed.

[Siderite]

Just going to say that I read that and there is nothing too much to disagree with Wallace from there from me. Some sloppy word choices, but the overall tone is correct. No ceasefire support, so he recognises the reality of the situation, but an urge for restraint that is needed. The IDF may not be committing actions like Saddam’s army, which is what I was objecting to above and the deaths may be because of war, but that doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be calls for more appropriate tactics.

[Just Iron]

Well guys .. if I’m compared to Bucks then, for you, I guess you’ve found the ultimate satisfactory dig. But its true in one respect. Its thankless making a contribution that might challenge your thinking because you start to ‘strut’ over your territory and flow free with the insults. That’s why Bucks ‘did one’ ,Heath.. and why you’ve also got your weasely way with me. Sidey sits pretty well with you on many topics but has been unbelievably patient and committed to offering a more nuanced approach on this topic. His reward? ‘Stop this! Stop that!’ In other words ..’ You dont see it like ME so shut the hell up!How dare you come on OUR board and have a different opinion.’ And also accused of supporting mass murder and Genocide as a throw away. Enjoy your little agreement club. I’ve always advocated for respectful dialogue amongst healthy debate but it ain’t available here .. certainly not on this subject .. so I’m happy to comply with Heath’s diktat and ‘do one.’

[Iron-awe]

Certainly now Israel are entrenched so deep into Gaza they could reconfigure their approach, Hamas are fighting a guerrilla type war and Israel have the military intelligence and firepower to more than match this and react accordingly. This “bomb that, bomb this and if your innocent and in the way we don’t give a shit” attitude is doing Israel no favours whatsoever politically but if you have a right wing maniac driving you forward I guess it’s not gonna change anytime soon.

[Siderite]

It does seem unnecessarily tense at times, JI. I do agree there. It’s just a messageboard and doesn’t mean much. I have been guilty of reacting at times, so this not about me chiding others, but I don’t get why different opinions need to get so tense.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Just Iron

[Deereyme66]

‘Enjoy your little agreement club.’

It’s nothing of the sort, and that is exactly the type of response I meant by ‘Bucksiron’. You’ll be grouping anyone who doesn’t agree with you as ‘usual suspects’ next. Posters are submitting their opinions to greater or lesser degree. There may be some convergence of opinion, there may be differences. And that is that. Your desire to ridicule and undermine opinions is cheap. ‘Ideological’? Oh the irony. That’s hilarious.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Heath

[64]

if you send people out with murder in mind they kill everyone,even their own .Hence the white flag murders of Israeli citizens.It wasn’t an accident,they thought they were Muslims

[Deereyme66]

Lol, some bloke on BBC Politics Live saying with all the aid money Gaza has had they could have built Beijing on Sea. Absolute moron.

[Deereyme66]

The bloke I referred to above – Lord Stewart Jackson. Nice chap…

‘After losing his seat in 2017, Jackson contacted a former constituent who had been critical of him on Facebook to call him a “thick chav”, and also wrote: “If you print any shit about me on Facebook in the future you will regret it.”[19]

In October 2018, Jackson, who is known for his pro-Brexit views, was again criticised after tweeting: “What a pathetic cretin” in response to a picture of an ill child with a duvet depicting the European Union flag. The child was recovering from an operation at the Great Ormond Street Hospital.’

[Just Iron]

Deereyme66 wrote:

‘Enjoy your little agreement club.’

It’s nothing of the sort, and that is exactly the type of response I meant by ‘Bucksiron’. You’ll be grouping anyone who doesn’t agree with you as ‘usual suspects’ next. Posters are submitting their opinions to greater or lesser degree. There may be some convergence of opinion, there may be differences. And that is that. Your desire to ridicule and undermine opinions is cheap. ‘Ideological’? Oh the irony. That’s hilarious.

You’re fooling yourself, Deerey. Anyone posting at a tangent to yourself, Heath, 64 etc isn’t always likely to be engaged reasonably in a detailed and robust manner but is potentially setting themselves up for the type of outraged ‘stop, stop, stop ‘ nonsense that I called out …. and then the accusations start. I have never told anyone in my years of intermittent posting to stop presenting their case and I have enjoyed … sometimes with you … some fairly deep and searching exchanges. But recently … and especially on certain topics… it’s just not like that. I’m not that bothered …. although we all like to be listened to and respected … but I do think that I’m a reasonable bloke and express myself clearly but politely. So now, as I ‘do one’,there will be a reduction in the potential for debate and respectful difference. The pitifully small number of interested posters drops again and you have the consolation that the level of agreement is strengthened. I think it’s sad. You don’t think it’s true.

[Deereyme66]

I think you have quite a high opinion of yourself and high expectations of this site. It’s the non football side of a football forum, not the Oxford Union.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Heath

[Iron-awe]

JI has added some valuable reasoned content on this forum over a variety of topics over the years and I think he’s recognised as an intelligent contributor by most here, however he is rather blinkered when it comes to his high handed approach which he uses from time to time when he becomes frustrated with others points of view. I suspect he won’t recognise this trait in his debating but it does come across sometimes as vintage Bucks, what a badge of honour to own that is.

[Author]

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