Closing academy

[Anonymous]

SST wrote:

The academy debate rumbles on. I actually believe some of what the OP said to be true.

There is some suggestion that the academy would not be eligible for funding next season. This is simply not true. Funding would drop from £500,000 to £250,000 next season. Hilton confirmed as much on the interview with James.

The crucial point here though is that the club did not spend the full £500,000 funding on the academy last season.

The funding is not ring fenced and can be utilised in other areas as long as the academy is run adequately.

The claw backs mentioned can happen to any club at any time but given Hilton has announced the closure of the academy we may come under more scrutiny.

At least two roles, including a Lead Foundation Phase coach and a player care role, were not filled despite the club receiving the funding. This leaves the club open to the possibility of a claw back.

Hilton was correct that the current set up does cost over £250,000 to run so keeping it would cost the club money that they clearly do not have.

However a stripped back academy could theoretically continue to operate for little or no cost next season with the £250,000 funding. They train up at the school and have offices up there, so the closure of the training ground and Glanford Park during the week would have very little impact.

The funding stops completely at the end of next season, so that would be a different situation entirely.

A simple solution to reduce the staff wage bill would be to reduce the number of teams:

U9/U10 – reduce squad size keeping the best 6 from each age group.

U11/U12 – as above but retain 8 from each age group.

U13/U14 – as above.

U15/U16 – as above.

U18s

5 teams.

U18 Daws & Watson take the team.
U15/U16 as above.
U13/U14 Smith & 1 takes the team.
U11/U12 Butler & 1.
U9/U10 FPC & 1

1 physio
1 administrator

A mere 10 members of staff.

The 3 ‘plus one’ coaches would all be part-time – training & match day. Approx 10 hours a week.

The Smith, Butler & FPC could work reduced hours. Half the number of teams = half the number of players = half the number of hours… so say 20 hours.

Only having 4 teams would also reduce the facility hire cost.
If we retained the in town training facility, then why couldn’t the Academy use this for free?

Four teams also means less equipment is needed – which is not a huge cost but every little helps.

It’s always had a ‘shoe string’ “budget” – we could probably manage it on a ‘half shoe string’ budget.

[Anonymous]

Iron-awe wrote:

Some people get sacked by text, it’s a whole new world out there thanks to mobile phone mania and social media. Apparently lots of people love this brave new technical world, so go suck it up and live with it.

Indeed, it is a Brave New World.
The book by Aldous Huxley (1932) sits in my collection.

I’ll repeat … EMPATHY

In your brave new world, how would you feel if you were informed by a text message that:

1) you’ve got terminal cancer.
2) that your wife/husband has just passed away in hospital.
3) (let’s assume the police now also use that great new technology) that your son/daughter has just died in a car crash.
4) your child/grand child has meningitis and that to save him/her, they’ve got to amputate all four limbs.
5) that your son/daughter has just been blown up by an IED in Afghanistan (substitute current area of conflict)

I could go on – but I’m sure you get my point?

1 user thanked author for this post.

Deereyme66

[Anonymous]

Richgy wrote:

Whether its a good decision for the club is irrelevant really , Swann and Hilton can be put to one side .

From a human perspective its horrible i remember being a kid , I played for an academy side but was not good enough to make it but at least had the opportunity until 17-18 to realise i probably wouldnt make it and didnt really have the desire or ability to play at a decent level so packed it in .

But from that earlier age 7,8,10,12 to be told you wont be able to continue with what for most of them is probably their hometowm club doesnt sit right with me , to be dealt such a blow so early on when you should just be enjoying it is sad .

I just hope local clubs us ,Bottesford ,North Ferriby ,Clee town ,Barton,Hull etc step up and at least give these lads an opportunity to train with them maybe a trial or training so they at least get the chance to be fixed up with something and can continue to enjoy the game .

The same with all the staff that get let go they will have fsmilies to support so will be a difficult time,and the job market is particularly easy at the minute hopefully they all get fixed up quickly .

Its terrible that with all the turmoil it has now even affected the future generations of the club and peoples day to day lives .

Training in Ilkeston.
Sale of the training pitch for retail development.
Mothballed stadium.
No Academy.
NLN.
Quality / Calibre of players.
Quality / Calibre of manager.

We are no longer a Professional Football Club.
I don’t think we qualify as a semi-professional outfit.

We are AMATEUR!

EPPP – we are no longer of the Elite, our first team Players are sub standard, our Performances are abysmal and we have no Plan!

Those closing the Academy and even the pod cast guys have no understanding of how Academies operate and the rules that they have to adhere to.

Have a look at the Academy Parents Handbook (42 pages).

https://www.efl.com/siteassets/efl-documents/youth-development-academy-parents-carers-handbook-2022-23-e-book-version.pdf

Have a look at the Youth Rules (107 pages)

https://www.carlisleunited.co.uk/siteassets/documents-2223/efl-youth-development-rules-2022-23.pdf

The Premier League / EFL’s original EPPP guide / stipulations from 2011 (117 pages)

https://www.goalreports.com/EPLPlan.pdf

The EPPP requirements will have developed and become more convoluted in the ensuing 12 years.

Is the football getting in the way of the paperwork?

In summary, next season, we will be one of three teams in a 24 team league that won’t be running an U18/U19 team.

EMBARRASSING!

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Sanfran49

[Sanfran49]

The speed of the announcement and the unprofessional treatment of all in the Academy adds to concerns.

2 users thanked author for this post.

Deereyme66,

[Anonymous]

New brush sweeps clean.

“I wouldn’t go that far”
Trigger

“Look after your broom”
Trigger

Brilliant 🤩

[Anonymous]

I’m guessing the 9s to 16s will be concluding their seasons as the redundancy consultation period ends on Sunday 25th June?

Not that any consultations appear to have taken place?
Redundancy is covered under the Employment Rights Act 1996.

Games the website states still to be played:

Sun 16/04 – GRIMSBY TOWN
Sun 23/04 – ROTHERHAM UNITED
Sun 30/04 – LINCOLN CITY
Sun 07/05 – MANSFIELD TOWN

[Bartoniron66]

No one was going to take on positions within the club with so much uncertainty hanging over it! I worked for the academy and trust me it was in a dire state, pitches were terrible, equipment was second right, the office was not fit for purpose.
but despite all this there was still some very good and well qualified people working there, the first team has been siphoning money off for years leaving the academy to get into the rundown, out of date and not fit for purpose dinosaur.
Hope these people get jobs at clubs that will value them and give them the backing and equipment they deserve, as these along with the staff at the ground and club offices are the people who are baring the true cost of years of underinvestment and bad management

4 users thanked author for this post.

bartonscorpion, , Awaywego, MK Iron

[Bartoniron66]

Most age groups are struggling for numbers with no u16s at all left at the club! So it wouldn’t surprise me if they don’t fulfil these fixtures, believe there is only 5 full time staff as they couldn’t fill other roles.

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[SST]

Hearing some form of u-turn is likely to be announced.
Good news IMO!

3 users thanked author for this post.

, TheJuryeffsOut, Deereyme66

[Deereyme66]

Sounds promising. Be interested to hear more detail.

1 user thanked author for this post.

[Awaywego]

Be like me Rene and don’t have a mobile no text messages for me.

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[Anonymous]

SST wrote:

Hearing some form of u-turn is likely to be announced.
Good news IMO!

And so there bloody well needs to be!

We had a CEO on £250k a year after his pay cut in Dim Rodwell.

If he was still around, his salary alone would equate to the total cost of the entire Academy!

“Unbelievable Jim” – Chris Kamara.

We genuinely may be in to an era of hand me down footballs and equipment and playing in the same kit for 3 or 4 seasons… so what, needs be and at least we’ve still got an Academy.
We still present a professional image.
The over inflated cross charges, higher than realistic apportionment of first team back up & office staff wages for ‘services’ to the Academy, the apportionment of first team invoices disguised and attributed to the Academy. Charging for ‘services’ never actually undertaken, ie upkeep of those lumpy, bumpy, weedy pitches with the longer than optimum grass and faded line markings. Buses attributed to the Academy that were used for journeys elsewhere. Diesel charged for the mowing of GP attributed to the Academy. First team sports science equipment being bought for the first team but attributed to and charged to the Academy.
The list is endless and has gone on since the inception of the EFL funding.
A creative accountant and an inventive CEO … amazing what you can hide!

Scunthorpe’s a small place. Everyone knows everyone else. You can’t even take your dog out for a walk without it appearing on Facebook that Bruno has crapped outside the Spar on Brumby Corner.
Every man and his dog in Scunthorpe are aware of how the club managed the Academy and what was going off.

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Deereyme66, SST

[Deereyme66]

Any apologies or humble pie eaters in this thread, get a shift on lads!

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[Anonymous]

Westyorksiron wrote:

Shame about the academy closing given it was just starting to produce a number of players with potential and some local lads have now established themselves like Wilson.
Even if it costs more this year to close it down this year, presumably we will only get further funding after next year when we are back in the EFL, which could be some time.
Shame about how this seems to have been communicated.
Always felt a combination of not being patient enough and problems with the previous regime have prevented us getting the best out of the better academy players (on the pitch / financially) we’ve produced in recent years like Wooton, Godden, Dawson, Sutton etc

The academy has always produced players.
What they don’t do, is pick the first team starting 11.

1st team managers have never been interested in the academy. All they are interested in (obviously) is winning 3 points on Saturdays.

A lack of U21s / Reserve teams over the years has disrupted their development and hence progress.
Managers won’t throw an inexperienced, untried & untested 18 year old in to the fray… when a bad run of 8 or ten games means they receive their P45.

It’s an almost impossible situation.

Clubs of our level, L2 / NL try their best but simply don’t have the resources & wealth to compete.

The Big Dogs have U17, U18, U19, U21, U23, B teams, A teams and their first team.

Yet, even they struggle to get academy players in to their first teams!

How many academy (U9 to U18) players, rather than the foreigners they buy at U19 will be in the starting line up on Saturday of the following clubs:

Man City
Man Utd
Arsenal
Chelsea
Spurs
Liverpool

One at each, two at best?

Keep the faith!

[SODIron]

In terms of redundancy cost, a lot will depend on how they employed the services of the academy staff.

It is common in sport for organisations to engage the services through a PSC (limited company), and give them yearly contracts through their limited company (I’ve worked that way for many years with England Athletics). If the academy staff were employed that way then there will be zero cost to the football club. If however, they are contracted employees of Scunthorpe United then undoubtedly there will be significant redundancy costs.

[lesgeo]

The trouble with ‘Brave New World’ is that it begins outstandingly well and sags badly over the last third of the book.
I gave Huxley another chance and found ‘Chrome Yellow’ weak and unreadable. Didn’t finish it.

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[Awaywego]

Be no humble pie, I would welcome any changes back so long it doesn’t mean that Daws and Turnbull stays, but still not fussed if Hilton carries on as per interview either whatever HE thinks He can afford.

[Anonymous]

Awaywego wrote:

Be no humble pie, I would welcome any changes back so long it doesn’t mean that Daws and Turnbull stays, but still not fussed if Hilton carries on as per interview either whatever HE thinks He can afford.

Apart from that one statement – which he may have very well been forced to deliver, Turny has done nowt wrong!
He’s done well at the Trust and an excellent HoR for the club.
His hands have been tied in his role as COO.
Daws is Mr Academy. Without him, it would have sunk without a trace many, many years ago.
Not even a float to purchase tea, coffee and milk with which to make visitors, guests and players & parents a drink… let alone offer them a biscuit!
Man City will buy parents a nice new house to relocate to in Manchester – and provide mum & dad with jobs.
At Scunny, we struggle to offer them a brew and a two fingered Kit Kat!

Rob Watson has worked with Daws for many years, is trusted, valued and highly rated. He works his socks off and is intelligent and inventive.

Smith & Butler are pretty new, one has loads of playing experience and a well respected coach. The other is another super Scunny player with loads of experience to draw upon.

Phil is Phil. A long serving unbelievably knowledgeable physio who has some great stories and is great for morale.

Ian, so much more than an administrator and HoE. He’s been in football his entire life, an ex teacher with tons of experience to draw upon. Top bloke.

If these guys were only in it for the money – the Academy would have died years ago!

[Awaywego]

Nobody is forced to deliver a statement like that Rene, isn’t man city doing something illegal?

[Anonymous]

Awaywego wrote:

Nobody is forced to deliver a statement like that Rene, isn’t man city doing something illegal?

You’d think so but they get away with it.
Super high powered lawyers & barristers who now how to slip through a loophole?

[64]

How exactly is this guy “saving our club”? Hes running it down and never had the cash to buy the stadium.

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bartonscorpion,

[Awaywego]

Neither did St Simon and St Ian would you, it’s a shite hole other fans call it the tin shed, Hilton’s trying to get the fans to buy it you can hardly blame him, if Mrs A would let me I would purchase in the 1899 club.

[Sanfran49]

SODIron wrote:

In terms of redundancy cost, a lot will depend on how they employed the services of the academy staff.

It is common in sport for organisations to engage the services through a PSC (limited company), and give them yearly contracts through their limited company (I’ve worked that way for many years with England Athletics). If the academy staff were employed that way then there will be zero cost to the football club. If however, they are contracted employees of Scunthorpe United then undoubtedly there will be significant redundancy costs.

A few years ago a company in Hull used to end every contract after a year. Then gave them another 1 yr contract. This was done to disenfranchise them under employment laws, you needed 2 years to gain your rights.

Someone challenged it and at tribunal they won their case and the firm had no alternative but to accept they lost the loophole. Possibly same here if that is the way they operate.

[WonderGoals]

SST wrote:

Hearing some form of u-turn is likely to be announced.
Good news IMO!

Is this regarding moving the club to Ilkeston to train, keeping the academy open or both ?

[Deereyme66]

Academy I think WG, though if it’s both, plus not mothballing GP during the week and opening just for matchdays (and possibly the day before) I think it would be welcomed by most. No denying that changes needed to be made to the operating budget, but have all options apart from moving everything apart from matchdays been explored fully? I’ll keep saying it too, the way things are going, from suspicious posts from Ilkeston Town fans / employees, to Nelson’s bombshell on BBC Humberside, to academy players and staff reportedly finding out about plans to close via social media, doesn’t inspire confidence. And this is regardless of rumours (a number of which have turned out to be true) and cheap ‘conspiracy theorist!’ shots appearing on here and other social media platforms.

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[Deereyme66]

I’m sure we’ll all watch the Iron Hour podcast with him with great interest when it comes out. Hope it’s more than an Ilkeston Town promo video and the guys don’t shy away from tough questions and probing. No reason to suggest they won’t.

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, B.gray

[Bartoniron66]

Rob has only come back this season after being at Barnsley for quite a few years, he left Scunny for Barnsley around 5 seasons ago, Andy only started in September time last year and was making his living as a postie whilst still playing for farsley.
I have been at the academy for 7 years and in that time every season they was a decline in the pitches, equipment, office and generally everything that makes a successful club academy.
There are many stories floating around about what the academy budget has been used for over this time but think it was always seen as then cash cow for the whole club and never rally got used for its purpose to provide the grounding for the future of the club.

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Sanfran49, , Deereyme66

[Anonymous]

Would the EFL permit a non EFL self funded academy to participate in their U18 programme and U16s games?
I doubt it.

I’m guessing the U18s would probably end up playing in the Lincolnshire Intermediate Football League?

And the 16s/15s in the local Jack Kalson League.

I’ve seen on Facebook players looking for new clubs for next season.

Perhaps just run the following?
U18s
U16/U15 joint team

U18s – Daws & Watson
U16/U15 – 2 part time coaches
Physio

Part time coaches = 10 hours per week

I reckon about £95k a season for those staff.
High Ridge facility hire = £?
Equipment = already in possession.
Kits = already in possession.

12 sponsors / philanthropists donating £10k a season should cover it?

Difficult days ahead.

[Sanfran49]

To Rene Artois – I do believe when Lincoln City were non league their U18s and others had to raise their own funds, they got very little from City. So outside sponsorship would be fine by me. What league they would compete in I am not sure.

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[Anonymous]

Any ‘stars’ amongst the first years?
Isn’t Cribb a first year?
Is there one or two who are worth signing pro and to train with the first team if it (Academy) closes?
Have any pro contracts been issued to 2nd years yet?
It’d be a disaster to let decent lads go.

[Author]

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