Bombing hospitals

[Iron Age]

Siderite wrote:

I wouldn’t call the British Mandate of Palestine a country in its own right. It was part of the British Empire and not subject to its own control. Before then it was part of the Ottoman Empire and before then it was part of Egyptian led Mameluk Empire. Going further back, the first mention of Palestine was from the Roman Empire, who used it to replace the name of Israel to quash Jewish rebellions against Rome.

None of this is to delegitimise Palestine’s existence, there should be a two-state solution, but it doesn’t delegitimise Israel’s existence either. Jews have existed in the ‘Holy land’ for centuries and most of Israel’s Jews do not actually hail from Europe, but from North Africa and the Middle-East.

The Brits flip-flopped over the mandate and made various promises to different groups. By the end they were not so pro-Israel and the state was only created after Israelis, USA and the UN pushed on it. Before then, I have read tales of Jewish immigrants in Cyprus kept in poor conditions as they tried to go to Israel. It should also be obvious why they were fleeing Europe in the late 40s. There could have been peace there and then, but hostility was there from the start from other Arab states. Was all of it good from the Israeli side? No, I am aware of population resettlements (though, it was not one-sided), but the idea that this somehow delegitimises Israel? Nah.

The states around them were also subject to being created through French and British interests, such as Iraq, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon. This too has created parts of the country with sects who might want their own nation state, divided by these past decrees. See the Kurds in northern Iraq and Syria, for example. Yet the bemoaning about this is far less.

Regardless, grievance mongering is not creating any hope of peace in the region. Israel is here to stay, and as much as they need to stop things like the settlements of the West Bank and its own divisive rhetoric, the destructive talk of Hamas and its supporters is only creating future hate.

To be perfectly accurate there wasn’t a country called Israel until recent times, Israel was a people named after Jacob who became Israel.
There were the tribes of Israel and the tribes of Judah, all had their own areas named after the sons of Jacob/Israel.
Nearby were the Philistines (Palestinians).
Before all this there was Canaan and Phoenicia.
All very complicated and as with anywhere else in the world, it’s very difficult to claim ancient rights.
Of course Melanie Phillips will have a totally different view.

[Siderite]

The Palestinians are not Phillistines. Philistines weren’t Arabic.

[Iron Age]

Another poignant thought.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/gaza-cemetery-containing-more-than-3-000-graves-of-british-and-commonwealth-servicemen-killed-during-first-world-war-is-damaged-in-the-latest-israel-hamas-fighting/ar-AA1jxu3I?ocid=emmx-mmx-feeds&PC=EMMX01

[Siderite]

Nor was it called ‘Palestine’ in the days of the Philistines. My understanding is that Palestinians are likely a mix of Arabs and those living there. By the time of the Romans the majority of the population was more Jewish and Philistines had declined. The more likely case is that Palestinians are a mix of Arab-Jewish inter-relations and it does nothing to disservice the claim that Israel has no legitimacy.

[Iron Age]

I stand corrected.

So that makes the Palestinians Semetic which the Philistines definitely were not?

[Siderite]

My understanding is that the exact origin on the Philistines are under research, but were more from Cyprus (possibly a result of the collapse of the collapse of the Mycenae). Arabs are a Semitic people, I think

[Bucksiron]

I’ve stayed away from the site for a long time but want to show support for Siderite on this appalling situation. It is, indeed, extremely complex and too many people are simply revealing their political bias when it comes to taking sides. I disagree with a huge amount of what Israel has done regarding the Palestinians, but a great deal of what we’re witnessing now in this country is racism in the form of anti-Semitism, pure and simple. It’s the same on this board, I’m afraid, and everybody knows who the perpetrators are.

The plain truth is that Hamas and many of their allies want to kill each and every Jew on the planet. That is a fact, which nobody can deny. Given these circumstances and what the Jews experienced in WW2, how can anyone blame them for taking whatever steps they deem necessary to rid the planet of these vile terrorists who care nothing about the Palestinian people.

The vast majority of Palestinians, I’ve no doubt, just want to live peacefully and after this appalling situation is over we can only hope that a long-lasting solution can be found, which will need compromise on all sides. Yes, that means Israel will have to change, but ultimately there were many Palestinians living perfectly happily with the Jews until Hamas carried out their despicable act. What’s happening now in Gaza is absolutely dreadful, but things will only improve when the Palestinians realise how badly they’ve been served by their Isis-like masters.

Meanwhile, Jews have every right to feel safe in this country every bit as much as Muslims or any other person of any colour, race or religion. Yet again, however, we see how certain people — not least on this board — are only too happy to denigrate anyone with religious beliefs; and I say that as an atheist.

[Deereyme66]

‘a great deal of what we’re witnessing now in this country is racism in the form of anti-Semitism, pure and simple. It’s the same on this board, I’m afraid’.

No it isn’t the same or we’d be having threads reported and deleted for such. We haven’t had one post reported for it so get your facts straight before you return with your lazy assumptions and opinions. Tell you what though, if you see any instances of antisemitism on here in the future, please do use the report function and we’ll have a look at your complaint and take it from there.

[Siderite]

It’s like old times with Bucks back. Bucks, completely off topic, what did you make of the whole David Hilton saga? Just out of interest. Were you suspicious from early on or did you place hope and trust in him? No judgement either way.

[Deereyme66]

Yeah, wouldn’t want to miss out on the opportunity to falsely accuse some left leaning types on here of antisemitism would he? Not calculated or owt of course.

[Fifty Pence]

Bucksiron wrote:

too many people are simply revealing their political bias when it comes to taking sides.

Including yourself. For those of us who are geographically, culturally and religiously detached from the middle east, a lot of this “siding” is political – Likud is very right wing, supported by America’s right wing. – so it’s not surprising that left leaning people are against the Israeli government (not against Israel, Israelis or Jews). People, on both sides of the political divide , are against Hamas (not Palestinians or Muslims) – so the inevitable arguments tend to be based on thoughts on Israel (and their actions) because the thoughts on Hamas aren’t so different.

[Iron-awe]

Can’t see Buck’s rocking up on here very often TBH.

[Siderite]

Fifty Pence wrote:

Bucksiron wrote:

too many people are simply revealing their political bias when it comes to taking sides.

Including yourself. For those of us who are geographically, culturally and religiously detached from the middle east, a lot of this “siding” is political – Likud is very right wing, supported by America’s right wing. – so it’s not surprising that left leaning people are against the Israeli government (not against Israel, Israelis or Jews). People, on both sides of the political divide , are against Hamas (not Palestinians or Muslims) – so the inevitable arguments tend to be based on thoughts on Israel (and their actions) because the thoughts on Hamas aren’t so different.

On here it’s more accurate, but go on social media and Hamas apologia is rife.

[Siderite]

Deereyme66 wrote:

Yeah, wouldn’t want to miss out on the opportunity to falsely accuse some left leaning types on here of antisemitism would he? Not calculated or owt of course.

Yes, Bucks is very bullish, I know that. He makes good points in there, in my opinion, but can see how some accusations aggravate others. I have found that from previous debates.

I am just curious as to what his opinions on Hilton are given his previous support for Swann and his absence.

[Siderite]

Siderite wrote:

Fifty Pence wrote:

Bucksiron wrote:

too many people are simply revealing their political bias when it comes to taking sides.

Including yourself. For those of us who are geographically, culturally and religiously detached from the middle east, a lot of this “siding” is political – Likud is very right wing, supported by America’s right wing. – so it’s not surprising that left leaning people are against the Israeli government (not against Israel, Israelis or Jews). People, on both sides of the political divide , are against Hamas (not Palestinians or Muslims) – so the inevitable arguments tend to be based on thoughts on Israel (and their actions) because the thoughts on Hamas aren’t so different.

On here it’s more accurate, but go on social media and Hamas apologia is rife.

On this, I notice that Peter Tatchell was refused entry to the march on the weekend with banners against Hamas. I think that’s quite telling. As was the attempted stabbing of the Iranian bloke with an anti-Hamas placard. There is a clear problem among many with regards to some poisonous views.

[Deereyme66]

‘On here it’s more accurate, but go on social media and Hamas apologia is rife.’

Agreed. Though Bucksiron was clearly making his point with reference to this forum, which shouldn’t be tarred with the worst examples of Twitter / X.

[Iron Age]

I’d just like to point out that it was “the left leaning types” along with some others that came to the aid of the Jewish community in and around Cable Street in London to protect them from the British Union of Fascists.
Whether that was just to make a political point is to be discussed.
The point being, if you are in any sort of minority, don’t rely on “the right” to come to your aid.

[Author]

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