Bombing hospitals

[Siderite]

I agree, whenever I discuss this (or anything) in person it can be a lot less fraught, because it’s easier to feed off others’ emotions. They aren’t so obvious online and can lead to misunderstandings and spiraling, as I have probably been guilty of here. Again, I apologise for getting heated.

[Deereyme66]

Likewise

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Siderite

[Just Iron]

As I said .. before Gurney stepped in with his measured and non partisan expose to urge everyone to stay clear of thinking which might emanate from a place that doesn’t harmonise with him .. try ‘What Justice Demands’ by Elan Journo. Not lightweight but scholarly and definitely a challenge to much of the ‘received wisdom’ regarding Israel. ps I will wear any cap that fits me, Gurney ..but if you want me to be ashamed then you will need to bring some substance rather than ideological and ‘Christianophobic’posturing.

[bartonscorpion]

Iron-awe wrote:

Must be difficult for you JI having family out there, being a Christian yet watching children getting murdered daily, peace be with you.

Yes I agree with your statement, it is terrible, but would you not aslo agree that is was worse for people that had their grown up kids murdered when attending a music festival !!, many of whome were shot dead along with families murdered or kidnpped by these Hammas bas£££ds, and kids beheaded by thwm, why do you think that this should just be ignored????, and to let them regroup and do it again, you are actually agreeing with them by what you are saying, this war would not be ongoing if these animals had not started it, YERS HAMMAS STARTED IT BY MURDERING OVER 1,200 iSRAELIANS THAT WERE IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY.

[Heath]

4,000 dead in the Gaza massacre. Don’t have any figures for how many of these are Hamas. Do you?

[Iron-awe]

bartonscorpion wrote:

Iron-awe wrote:

Must be difficult for you JI having family out there, being a Christian yet watching children getting murdered daily, peace be with you.

Yes I agree with your statement, it is terrible, but would you not aslo agree that is was worse for people that had their grown up kids murdered when attending a music festival !!, many of whome were shot dead along with families murdered or kidnpped by these Hammas bas£££ds, and kids beheaded by thwm, why do you think that this should just be ignored????, and to let them regroup and do it again, you are actually agreeing with them by what you are saying, this war would not be ongoing if these animals had not started it, YERS HAMMAS STARTED IT BY MURDERING OVER 1,200 iSRAELIANS THAT WERE IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY.

I was sympathysing with the position JI finds himself being involved with his family in Israel and his own Christian beliefs to all the killing and murdering that is taking place, I don’t expect you to understand any of this BS with your entrenched bigoted opinions.

[Deereyme66]

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/statement-principals-inter-agency-standing-committee-situation-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territory-we-need-immediate-humanitarian-ceasefire

[Iron-awe]

Over 10,000 reported dead in Gaza now, no amount of political posturing on this conflict can change the cold hard facts of the human tragedy unfolding before the eyes of the world.

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Deereyme66

[billpuntonsghost]

Talking about books etc JustIron, type in,”Introductory essay to John Owen’s Death of death in the death of Christ,by J I Packer.”
Read the first few paragraphs to see if it is of interest.

[bartonscorpion]

Yes it is a terrible mess out there, and sadly it will probably get a lpt worse. So no country or their leaders can solve this issue, so there is no point in us trying or even suggesting what to do. Yes this endless bombing and killing is terrible, but I cannot forget the fact that it started with Hammas killers going into Istael and slaughtering anyone in sight, and just think that if your child was attending a music festival and had been slaughtered, that sticks in my mind when talking about this happening, I cannot see it any other way.
Anyway there is no point in anyone commenting any more, so that is my final post on the subject, I just ondonhope it stops very soon, at the same time knowing it won’t. I await to see what happens with the London Silly Protest next Saturday, no doubt more people will get either injured or possibly killed,

[Deereyme66]

I agree. There’s no point in you commenting on it anymore.

[Iron-awe]

So distressing seeing an Israeli father who thought his young daughter had originally been killed by Hamas, pleading for her release tonight after finding out there is a good chance she was kidnapped and taken to Gaza by Hamas. He begs for compassion from Hamas and to allow all the young Israeli children kidnapped to be released as a start to stopping the conflict. It was also reported tonight that out of over 10,000 people murdered by Israel in Gaza in the last four weeks, 4000 of these were Palestinian children. Compassion indeed.

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Siderite

[Deereyme66]

Sums you up to be honest.

[bartonscorpion]

Iron-awe wrote:

Over 10,000 reported dead in Gaza now, no amount of political posturing on this conflict can change the cold hard facts of the human tragedy unfolding before the eyes of the world.

Yes bigot, but you forgot to mention that it is because these murdering Hammas animals started it all, give ius the full facts bigot instead of joing the activity half way through!!!

[Deereyme66]

Deereyme66 wrote:

Sums you up to be honest.

Just to be clear, I’d have been happy to leave your abusive and aggressive post up Bartonscorpion, to demonstrate what you’re about, but as another forum member reported it, I deleted it. And hopefully this explanation means that my comment above doesn’t appear to be a response to Iron-awe’s post.

[Siderite]

Iron-awe wrote:

So distressing seeing an Israeli father who thought his young daughter had originally been killed by Hamas, pleading for her release tonight after finding out there is a good chance she was kidnapped and taken to Gaza by Hamas. He begs for compassion from Hamas and to allow all the young Israeli children kidnapped to be released as a start to stopping the conflict. It was also reported tonight that out of over 10,000 people murdered by Israel in Gaza in the last four weeks, 4000 of these were Palestinian children. Compassion indeed.

The Israeli makes a point which I have thought for a while. No-one other than sadists thinks war is the optimal situation right now; my point has not been that this is good, but I don’t see how it can be avoided given the situation. Though, surely the best way out of this is for the hostages to be released, Hamas to surrender and free Palestine from the grip of an insane cult who endangers their lives directly through antagonising Israel and killing Palestinians who go against it. Only yesterday I saw photos and videos of Hamas operating in hospitals and artillery located next to or in schools and mosques. This is deliberate placement to ensure civilian casualties.

What I think should happen is that Arab countries should demand Hamas that the gig is up, they have no support from them and surrender with hostages released. If so, the US and UK would have no desire to continue backing Israel should Netanyahu and his far-right allies want to make territorial gains. If this was to happen we would get rid of Hamas and the war would be over. It would mean Fatah would likely get control of Gaza, and I am under no illusion as to them being good. They are still anti-Semitic, but I don’t think so mad to do anything like October 7. It would be a nudge to at least normalising things.

I get why people focus on Israel, as they are the ones launching a military operation into Gaza, but we can achieve peace by arguing for Hamas to give up too. That would also alleviate fears that future ceasefires could be broken and longer term peace is more likely. Calling on Israel to stop is one thing, but Hamas show no indication to stop rocket fire or attacks on Israeli citizens (and they don’t care who they kill – Bedouin, Israeli Arabs, Druze etc were all killed on Oct 7). That isn’t peace. However, if I was to say this at one of these ‘peace marches’ I suspect there would be a lot of anger directed at me from the so called pacifists.

I share Emily Maitlis’s sentiments here for Palestine.

pic.twitter.com/nRNcJHmO5U

— emily m (@maitlis) November 6, 2023

You can see the reaction of the Palestinian activists here in the replies, who leap to the defense of Hamas, despite claiming they don’t support them.

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bartonscorpion

[Heath]

“launching a military operation”.

I think I’ve heard that description of mass destruction and carnage using overwhelming force somewhere else before.

[Siderite]

The major difference is that I, and not many others, are saying this is a war. I didn’t say ‘launch a war’, because that was started when Hamas undertook the October 7 pogrom. Which is again a different context from Russia invading because ‘Ukraine is a fake country’ and for Russian imperialism. But, hey, why let that get in the way of assuming anyone who disagrees has to be duplicitous?

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bartonscorpion

[Siderite]

Correction: isn’t a war.

[Siderite]

Israel will have "overall security responsibility" in Gaza for "indefinite period" after war, Israel's Prime Minister Netanyahu says in interview https://t.co/7gBZE0ejZL

— CNN International (@cnni) November 7, 2023

Worrying and ominous. He may be a busted flush, since he’s deeply unpopular and might be removed after the war, but this isn’t good.

[Deereyme66]

It really isn’t.

[Heath]

They are completely blitzing Gaza and the Palestinians. What outcome we’re you expecting?

[Siderite]

I am not exactly surprised, but it’s disappointing still. Fortunately, there is little international appetite for that, there would be huge international pressure and domestic opinion is sour.

[Deereyme66]

Don’t think there’s much international appetite for the way the Israeli government are handling this overall, but they’re not intervening. I can see it happening personally.

[Iron Age]

We’ve been here before, after the six day war.
It didn’t work then and it won’t work now.
The only way it can work is by subjugation and suppression. Not a very satisfactory thought.

[bartonscorpion]

Another way of sorting this mess out is to dedicate a piece of land that the Gaza population could call their own country, not as the present time which has 2 million people living on a strip of land that is 20 miles long and 2 miles wide, how the hell can that be realistic. This should be decided at International level and Israel informed is the case, stop the bombing and also to returm all the hostages.

IT IS SIMPLE IF THE UN DID SOMETHING THAT WOULD GET RESULTS.

[Gurnelista]

Just Iron wrote:

As I said .. before Gurney stepped in with his measured and non partisan expose to urge everyone to stay clear of thinking which might emanate from a place that doesn’t harmonise with him ..

I’ll tell you what doesn’t harmonize with Gurn… it’s the lazy assumption above, that posters on here are semi-literate bumpkins, who, with a hefty dose of flattery and propaganda, can be groomed to think like any other member of the ‘gammonariat’. In fact there’s more than a passing resemblance to Les and Jonny on this count.

Feel free to recommend your propaganda, but at least make it clear about the authors’ backgrounds, their positions on Gaza, and how they chime with your own.

What’s happening there is truly hellish, and until both sides have different leaders without the brutal, medieval mindset which characterises so many fundamentally religious societies, it’s hard to see any way out. And, as DM said elsewhere, it could yet spread to involve third countries.

Never mind, it’s just God’s will, innit?

[Iron-awe]

bartonscorpion wrote:

Another way of sorting this mess out is to dedicate a piece of land that the Gaza population could call their own country, not as the present time which has 2 million people living on a strip of land that is 20 miles long and 2 miles wide, how the hell can that be realistic. This should be decided at International level and Israel informed is the case, stop the bombing and also to returm all the hostages.

IT IS SIMPLE IF THE UN DID SOMETHING THAT WOULD GET RESULTS.

Ha ha what an idiot you are BS, Palestinians did have a country many years ago till certain Western powers ( us being a major player ) decided Israel could take a piece of it and call it their own. There has been conflict, war and major unrest ever since, oh and we ran away when the going got tough.

[Siderite]

I wouldn’t call the British Mandate of Palestine a country in its own right. It was part of the British Empire and not subject to its own control. Before then it was part of the Ottoman Empire and before then it was part of Egyptian led Mameluk Empire. Going further back, the first mention of Palestine was from the Roman Empire, who used it to replace the name of Israel to quash Jewish rebellions against Rome.

None of this is to delegitimise Palestine’s existence, there should be a two-state solution, but it doesn’t delegitimise Israel’s existence either. Jews have existed in the ‘Holy land’ for centuries and most of Israel’s Jews do not actually hail from Europe, but from North Africa and the Middle-East.

The Brits flip-flopped over the mandate and made various promises to different groups. By the end they were not so pro-Israel and the state was only created after Israelis, USA and the UN pushed on it. Before then, I have read tales of Jewish immigrants in Cyprus kept in poor conditions as they tried to go to Israel. It should also be obvious why they were fleeing Europe in the late 40s. There could have been peace there and then, but hostility was there from the start from other Arab states. Was all of it good from the Israeli side? No, I am aware of population resettlements (though, it was not one-sided), but the idea that this somehow delegitimises Israel? Nah.

The states around them were also subject to being created through French and British interests, such as Iraq, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon. This too has created parts of the country with sects who might want their own nation state, divided by these past decrees. See the Kurds in northern Iraq and Syria, for example. Yet the bemoaning about this is far less.

Regardless, grievance mongering is not creating any hope of peace in the region. Israel is here to stay, and as much as they need to stop things like the settlements of the West Bank and its own divisive rhetoric, the destructive talk of Hamas and its supporters is only creating future hate.

[Just Iron]

Somehow, Gurney … I never quite feel that pursuing truth on any topic I venture an opinion on is the point for you. Its become personal. It incenses you that anyone holding ‘my despicable perspectives’ should express them in a way that may be categorised as measured and reasonably respectful. Resorting to the Les and Jonny guff, a little poke at my faith .. characterising my posts as ‘grooming’ and ‘propaganda’ and somehow patronising. When we first locked horns I felt that some of your responses and strategies were beneath you. As things have developed over a few years I’ve revised my opinion.

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bartonscorpion

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