Bombing hospitals

[Iron-awe]

Deereyme66 wrote:

Bigoted idiot

Agreed, when attempting to discuss a very difficult situation which isn’t easy to provide a safe solution for all parties ( Israelis and Palestinian people) certain people have to bring in unhelpful rhetoric, it’s unwarranted and bang out of order

[Deereyme66]

I find it feckin depressing. Doesn’t seem any point in engaging with people who hold those sort of views.

[bartonscorpion]

Every one has their own views on this pointless war, but it would not be ongoing if Hammas had not invaded Israel and killed 1,200 in cold blood, and also took over 220 captive and just think what these poor sods are going through right now. So please tell me, what is Israel supposed to do, just walk away and wait until these murdering animals come back and do the same again??????

I appreciate that you do gooders feel that you should always support the bad people, but please accept the views of those that condemn the criminals and the wrong doers, thats life and it will never change.

[Iron-awe]

BS if you are unaware which part of your post on page one was bang out of order then you are beyond help, as I have suspected for many years on this particular forum.

[Deereyme66]

What is Israel supposed to do? Act within international law and stop taking out thousands of civilians, many of them children, in the process of retribution.

[Deereyme66]

‘I appreciate that you do gooders feel that you should always support the bad people’

I appreciate that you’re talking out your backside pal.

[Siderite]

It’s not retribution. They aren’t deliberately targeting civilians, the problem is that civilians are often where Hamas locate themselves. Discussing whether they should still target these is a debating point, but it’s different from retribution. For instance, Israel opened up a civilian corridor the other day, which goes against the talk of them deliberately targeting civilians. Then Hamas allegedly launched artillery at the fleeing civilians. That doesn’t get much condemnation on social media though.

1 user thanked author for this post.

bartonscorpion

[Deereyme66]

Of course it’s retribution. Retribution for the Hamas atrocity. If you’re claiming otherwise I think you’re deluded personally. Israel bombing areas where civilians are, simply because Hamas use them as human shields shouldn’t even be a debating point. Disgusting and against international law. Committing war crimes. Simple as that. I find your general opinions on this subject biased tbh Siderite. You seem to be on a mission to dig out social media interpretations that irk you. I’ll stick with BBC and Channel 4 news interpretations. The inhumanity increases by the day and world leaders are just letting it happen. Horrific.

3 users thanked author for this post.

Iron-awe, IronIronIron, Heath

[Deereyme66]

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/what-war-crimes-laws-apply-israel-palestinian-conflict-2023-11-02/

[Siderite]

I could say the same to you on this. Case in point being BBC, and especially Channel 4, who did so much to damage their own reputation by blindly believing what a Hamas government minister told them. All those moral warriors outraged about Al-Ahli fell rather silent when it looked like it was a PIJ missile.

As for it being retribution, of course it’s in response to October 7, but the idea that it’s aimed at killing civilians as a motive I find spurious, at present (I will get to this later). I don’t see why the IDF would call for civilians to leave if it was about that. International law makes it clear that military targets in civilian areas is not illegal, so any targeting of such is not beyond limits. Whether they should is debatable, but I don’t see how it’s any different to when US led forces did the same in Iraq and Syria against ISIS. That also involved urban warfare and civilian casualties. Yet there was far less uproar.

Meanwhile, Hamas have repeatedly said they would repeat October 7 until all Jews are removed from Israel and that they would annihilate all Jews, so I still don’t know what a ceasefire would mean. Would it mean allowing Hamas to just keep carrying out pogroms and Israel accepting its citizens are collateral damage? It’s just not workable. If a death cult had called for death to Brits, carried out a massacre, and said they’d do it continuously, the UK would react and did so against ISIS. Yet when Israel do it, it’s somehow worse.

As for Israel, people can say I am biased, but I just recognise its right to exist and defend itself. If that makes me biased, so be it. I am no fan of the regime, who are despicable and fascist inclined. You only have to look at the arming of settlers in the West Bank and recent comments about nuking Gaza to demonstrate that (hence my at present comment). Netanyahu removed the offender, but if the extremists in the coalition get in power I would expect to see less calls for civilians to leave and outright targeting of civilians deliberately. This isn’t me praising Netanyahu for removing the offender either. He is a populist moron who shunned centrists through dislike to work with the clowns and has done much damage of his own to Israel’s democracy through his own corruption. He was so dedicated to his culture war against Israeli liberals that he neglected his country’s safety, which was supposed to be his selling point. The West Bank settlers are appalling and wrong. However, many countries have such instances of wrongdoing and it doesn’t make their existence wrong or deny them the right to defend themselves against an attack. The Israeli liberals who oppose Netanyahu and his gang of corrupt crooks also tend to support Israel in this conflict, because they know what Hamas means. I will also say that I wished aid would get in faster, but Egypt is also to blame for that.

As for digging out social media interpretations, I don’t need to dig far. Speakers at the ‘peace marches’ openly call for the destruction of Israel and supporting the ‘resistance’ on Oct 7. People chant songs which Jews see as calling for their deaths*, say they support Hamas and wang on about gloablising the intifada. They’re not necessarily everyone on the march (I am sure many go through a desire for peace), but they represent a significant number who just get ignored and cause much of the division. I would say that is bias from the pro-Palestinian side and none of this will be solved until it is rectified.

"We saw what the resistance can do when they take the fight & their self determination in their own hands. This has been the biggest blow to Zionism that we've seen in our lifetimes…you know what the so called labour progressives think about it? they condemned it as terrorism!" pic.twitter.com/Rb3eFe2WmQ

— Harry's Place (@hurryupharry) November 4, 2023

*It’s funny how all lives matter is rightfully shunned as downplaying racism against black people, but we must have nuance when it comes to “from the river to the sea.”

[Just Iron]

Breaking my vow of silence just this once… and I have actually kept to it for a few weeks… to do two things. First to commend you Sidey for a detailed and principled stand which reflects a well informed and humble attitude. Keep up the good work even as the accusations of being deluded and biased start to surface.
Second to recommend two books. One is ‘A State Beyond the Pale’ by Robin Shepherd. The second, more detailed and definitely the best I’ve read on this topic, What Justice Demands’ by Elan Journo.
All the best everyone.

2 users thanked author for this post.

bartonscorpion, Siderite

[Iron-awe]

Must be difficult for you JI having family out there, being a Christian yet watching children getting murdered daily, peace be with you.

[Siderite]

I think it has been a civil discussion for the most part, at least when it comes to where I have stepped in. I realise not everyone will agree with me, but appreciate that it hasn’t been as hostile as this topic can get.

[bartonscorpion]

Deereyme66 wrote:

‘I appreciate that you do gooders feel that you should always support the bad people’

I appreciate that you’re talking out your backside pal.

This is Just the kind oif educated reply one can expect from one of the do gooders that will not accept any different view to their own. Have you got any protests to attend Deeryme !!!!

[Siderite]

I wouldn’t have said that DM supports Hamas. There is nuance in where people’s positions are.

[Gurnelista]

Just Iron wrote:

Second to recommend two books. One is ‘A State Beyond the Pale’ by Robin Shepherd. The second, more detailed and definitely the best I’ve read on this topic, What Justice Demands’ by Elan Journo.

Nah, these are just puff-pieces for pro-Israel propaganda. The first (Shepherd’s) is by…

“a former kibbutznik and Director of International Affairs at the Israeli-funded and staunchly pro-Israel neocon think-tank, the Henry Jackson Society. The publisher is George Weidenfeld (the former political adviser and Chief of Cabinet to the first president of Israel, former Chairman of the Ben Gurion University of the Negev, Governor of the Weizmann Institute and Vice-Chairman of the EU-Israel Forum).”

The second (Journo’s) is from an author who is Vice President of the right-wing Ayn Rand Institute (look it up, anyone who doesn’t know it) and is published by Post Hill Press, a publisher specialising in conservative and (loony) Christian titles.

Really JI, you come on here with your religious, right-wing propaganda thinking nobody knows any better. It’s truly shameful.

Next time, either hold your peace or lay your cards on the table and just say ‘I am pro Christian, pro-Jewish and right wing, so I think these books are great.’ Coz that’s what it boils down to.

As-salaam-Alaikum / Shalom

[Deereyme66]

‘First to commend you Sidey for a detailed and principled stand which reflects a well informed and humble attitude.’

Because you agree with it. There’s barely anything about the inhumanity towards Palestinian civilians in any of his lengthy posts. It’s not a balanced view. Any fool can see that. It’s ironic how you are both quick to jump on the flag wavers and protesters, of which I’m not one, but celebrate each others position. I find it an uncomfortable read. Just my opinion.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Heath

[Siderite]

I could say the same to you and others about Israelis tbh.

[Deereyme66]

I’m happy to have my opinion challenged and changed Bartonscorpion. Not by people who are willfully ignoring a humanitarian disaster that could be avoided and certainly not by bigots like you.

[Siderite]

Deereyme66 wrote:

‘First to commend you Sidey for a detailed and principled stand which reflects a well informed and humble attitude.’

Because you agree with it. There’s barely anything about the inhumanity towards Palestinian civilians in any of his lengthy posts. It’s not a balanced view. Any fool can see that. It’s ironic how you are both quick to jump on the flag wavers and protesters, of which I’m not one, but celebrate each others position. I find it an uncomfortable read. Just my opinion.

I have said more than once that it’s bleak and sad, precisely because Palestinians are dying, as well as Oct 7th. Please don’t slander. My point is that it’s complex and there are no easy solutions. Saying Israel has the right to defend itself and take out threats, like any other nation would (with far less objections) is my point. Hamas don’t care or want a ceasefire, they have repeatedly broken them and say they would do again and again. Is the only solution that Israel just accepts their civilians should be subjected to pogroms? People say they can and should be able to look after that, since Oct 7 came after a massive bit of negligence from Netanyahu’s government. Well, they can always do that and lock down the borders more. Then the same people accuse them of blockading Gaza. They can’t win.

[Deereyme66]

Siderite wrote:

I could say the same to you and others about Israelis tbh.

Yeah, you could but but you’d be totally incorrect. All I’ve posted about is how Israel’s response is effecting civilians. If you’ve posted anything substantial about the spiralling humanitarian crisis, affecting children every day then I apologise.

[Siderite]

Siderite wrote:

I do agree, DM. It’s bad and it does make me sad for all involved.

I mean, what do you think I was sad about here?

[Siderite]

Deereyme66 wrote:

Siderite wrote:

I could say the same to you and others about Israelis tbh.

Yeah, you could but but you’d be totally incorrect. All I’ve posted about is how Israel’s response is effecting civilians. If you’ve posted anything substantial about the spiralling humanitarian crisis, affecting children every day then I apologise.

I could also say that I have posted about how I have mentioned that war brings casualty and of course that’s bad before, that my focus here has been that Israel has a right to defend itself. However, saying anything in support of Israel is apparently ‘unbalanced’, yet disregarding it and no comments on how Israel can defend itself without this is apparently ‘balanced’.

No comments about dead Israelis which triggered this, fine. Saying only a little bit about Palestinians means you’re evil.

[Siderite]

You want to know my opinion on Palestinian civilians? It’s devastating. Of course it is. I have felt sad about it for the past few weeks, not just because of the Oct 7 horror, but because I do not like war. All deaths involved are horrible, even in the most just of wars. Of course it’s sad to see upset parents, brothers, sisters, husbands, wives etc. It’s devastating and I wish the world didn’t have to be so cruel. My point has been to talk of what else can be done, because Israel has a right to exist and a right to defend itself like every other nation has done. We have done similar in WWII, against ISIS and other wars. Yet the bombings of Hamburg, Stuttgart, Leipzig etc did not remove the just reason for WWII. The sad deaths of those German civilians (300,000, at least) caught in the crossfire of destroying German infrastructure were of course catastrophic, but it didn’t make the war wrong. Believe me or not, but I do find it distressing, as I have said before. I don’t know why you want me to comment more on this, since you have moaned about lengthy posts anyway.

I don’t even like Netanyahu’s corrupt government. I do not like the settler movement in the West Bank and worry over the remarks of Netanyahu’s partners. Yet people saying I am oblivious to the humanitarian situation do not consider what the alternative is, in my opinion. Israel should not accept their citizens as regular folly for Hamas. Hamas have made it clear what their motives are; they have been on Saudi TV twice this week talking about the need to annihilate all Jews. Like every other ceasefire, they will look to break it and to kill Jews. They will take all the aid they can and use it for attacking Israel, not helping civilians. A ceasefire just means more of this.

I have admittedly got heated, and apologise for some strong statements. I do not think some charges against me are fair, though. I can say I haven’t spoken as much about Palestinian casualties is because my focus has been on what can be done for Israel given the context of the situation of hostages taken and worrying over this happening again. I have expressed dislike at many of those involved with the Palestinian rights movement, but that hasn’t been aimed at this forum. I have said that many who go and have sympathies have a good moral conscience, which is more than what has been said for anyone defending Israel’s right to defend itself (that is automatically ‘unbalanced’ seemingly). I don’t think it’s unbalanced to criticise those celebrating Oct 7, Hamas etc for their anti-Semitism. Unfortunately, the Palestinian rights movement has done incredibly little to distance themselves from it.

[Deereyme66]

I think you’re exaggerating to make points now tbh

‘However, saying anything in support of Israel is apparently ‘unbalanced’’

No. That’s not what anyone has said. That’s disrespectful IMO.

‘Saying only a little bit about Palestinian’s means you’re evil.’

Likewise. No one has said that and I doubt the majority in this discussion think that. Why are you twisting what’s being said.

Everyone knows it’s a highly complex situation with no easy answers. Of course Hamas’s actions on 7 Oct were an atrocity, I’ve already said that. No one is denying it. However, I’m more focused on what is happening now to civilians in Gaza. It simply shouldn’t be happening. You can write all the detail you like, most of us are probably aware of a lot of it. It’s not like we’re uneducated.

[Deereyme66]

I think we’re typing at the same time Siderite. By the time I’ve posted something you’ve already posted something else. This is too complex and highly charged for a non-football discussion for me. I’ve given my opinion. Stepping out now.

[Deereyme66]

‘you have moaned about lengthy posts anyway.’

No I haven’t! I made a comment about your lengthy posts. That’s not moaning. And you’re accusing me of slander? Ffs.

[Siderite]

What should be happening then? Israel not launching any offensive and accepting Hamas wanting to kill them? Break more ceasefires, launch more rockets? This is what I mean and I get attacked as if I am evil for it. Yet I don’t think many who speak of the need for a ceasefire come up with anything satisfactory for how it can be just lived with, which is an appalling thought anyway.

I admit that I responded in emotion, but I don’t think I have been the only one twisting. I have repeatedly said that I think many, including those on here, are motivated in good conscience. Shame the ‘balanced’ ones can’t for any defense of Israel for its right to self-defend.

[Siderite]

Deereyme66 wrote:

‘you have moaned about lengthy posts anyway.’

No I haven’t! I made a comment about your lengthy posts. That’s not moaning. And you’re accusing me of slander? Ffs.

It was probably a misinterpretation of a criticism. I realise it’s an emotional subject and to have found it frustrating to be made out to not care about the humanitarian crisis. That was the main issue for me. Like I say, it’s devastating. I just can’t see how else it can play out. Urban warfare will never be safe, we have seen it in other cases to less outrage. I realise I snapped in response to that. I don’t think I have been unfair to others on here in their motives previously, so it rankled. I have criticised Israel a lot in this thread, maybe not for responding to an act of war, but I don’t think I am so blind to Israel’s faults. I am not going to criticise Israel more than I would other countries for such conduct in war. They should allow more aid in. Though, this can all end if Hamas surrender and give up the hostages. There has been little to no pressure on that, so I do find some unbalance myself from some. Palestinians deserve better than Hamas, who see their lives as pawns for their ideology and rule with an iron fist. I cannot see how peace can be achieved long term with them in existence as a credible force.

[Deereyme66]

Happy to have a discussion about this subject should we ever meet Siderite. I think it’s better served in that environment and not on forums and other social media.

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Siderite

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