Bombing hospitals

[64]

“I support Israel”

[Siderite]

Palestine’s government have been launching missiles at cities with civilians in and no attempt to evacuate.

“I support Palestine.”

Such rhetoric can work both ways.

[64]

Ha,I am not backing murder, am I? You are and haver been for days.Non doubt their special hosted safe bombs were used.
It’s about time out media and Government called this out for the Hamaseque terrorism that it is. This meely mouthed call for calm is vile

[Siderite]

Neither am I, I am just saying war is inevitable, not caused by Israel, has a right to respond to an act of war and saying that it’s not genocide. Saying that If you want to play that game, I could say that you don’t give a damn about Jews since you have no answer or care for what happened seemingly. If only Israel did nothing and allowed Hamas to kill more civilians in a genocidal rampage, eh? At least you can sleep easily then.

[Siderite]

Those who were so eager to believe a Hamas minister may want to think why given there are now multiple reports of a failed Palestinian Islamic Jihad missile causing this. We don’t know for sure and it’s maybe best to wait until there’s actual evidence of what happened. It just makes me wonder why there was a motivation to believe without evidence.

[Iron-awe]

Well both sides are calling each other liars as is the norm when war starts, Russia/ Ukraine being a recent example. Who you believe is up to the individual based on various information from various media outlets and as usual the messages are mixed. We can however deal with the facts of the death rates so far in the last 10 days and it is in excess of 4500 and climbing, utterly tragic and unnecessary and unfortunately the dead have had no say in the matter whatsoever, this is the harsh reality of war. Two Arab nations have cancelled their meetings with the American President, highly irregular and unprecedented, that bodes badly for what is coming next. The bloodshed is going to be colossal and if people are not going to discuss aid reaching Gaza or the possibility of a ceasefire then I’m afraid the Middle East could explode into something not seen in that area for a very long time indeed.

[Siderite]

The question is again about what should Israel do instead after an act of war and hostages taken. There won’t be a ceasefire of any sort until that happens. It would be like demanding UK call a ceasefire after Germany started WWII by invading Poland. A ceasefire is only possible when certain conditions are met, and Israel won’t pertain it for now; they won’t want to make Hamas think they can do a pogrom and kidnapping again without consequence to them. It’s all well and good saying Israel should stop, but they aren’t the only ones with agency. It shouldn’t be too much for Hamas to give up the hostages.

As for what both sides say, yes there will be conflicting claims. Yet that doesn’t mean it’s impossible to determine anything. It has been clear that Russian claims are far more false than Ukrainian, and independent sources. Their spreading of disinformation doesn’t invalidate everything the other side says. It shouldn’t be about believing what suits your opinion, it should be about what the evidence suggests. This event is still early, but if people are going to make claims then they need to back it up. OSINT is an open source intelligence network, not affiliated to Israel or Palestine, and they have stated that the hospital was bombed by a failed PIJ missile:

Footage has been released from Northern Gaza earlier tonight which appears to possibly show a Rocket launched by Palestinian Groups in the Strip having Exploded for an Unknown Reason causing Debris to Rain Down resulting in the Explosion and subsequent Fire at Al-Ahli Arabi… pic.twitter.com/3qVdzkW3aV

— OSINTdefender (@sentdefender) October 17, 2023

The evidence they give for this comes from a rocket strike, as captured by Al Jazeera at the same time as the hospital bombing, coming from the ground (I doubt the IDF airforce fly at ground level) and Hamas and PIJ announcing a barrage of missiles a few minutes before the bombing.

[Siderite]

Wise words from Shashank Joshi:

The evidence this morning, though NOT conclusive by any means, points more towards a failed rocket launch than an Israeli air strike. Last night’s rush to judgment, including by major regional powers, was premature, cynical and irresponsible. More evidence still needed. https://t.co/bBHICmazws

— Shashank Joshi (@shashj) October 18, 2023

[Deereyme66]

Not sure how to interpret the OINST clip Siderite. Not being well versed in munitions and explosives and what I’m supposed to be looking for.

[64]

That’ll be true then because I support Israel.They dutifully swallowed the crap about Any Akleh too

[Siderite]

Deereyme66 wrote:

Not sure how to interpret the OINST clip Siderite. Not being well versed in munitions and explosives and what I’m supposed to be looking for.

The important things really are the claims made, I think. The clip is of a rocket blast it links to the hospital bombing. The same clip is available elsewhere via Al Jazeera with a timestamp of the hospital bombing. This is not definitive, but I think it should be a warning for the media outlets and everyone who just pushed an unverified claim by a Hamas minister before evidence came out which suggests other explanations are maybe more plausible

It’s easy for 64 to talk of swallowing any old crap, but he was the one who put forward claims of bombing hospitals, linking it to Israel, when the only evidence was Hamas said it.

[Iron-awe]

Very hard to establish because of it being dark and the footage of the initial explosion in mid air is quite a distance away. When the camera concentrates on the fire on the ground and zooms in, it appears to be a fuel fed fire, bit like a ruptured fuel line or perhaps an underground oil pipe fire after being ruptured. Maybe it’s the fuel sources within the building but fuel and power supplies are said to be diminished or even in places cut off in Gaza. Whatever the truth is it’s a fact that both sides are well versed in propoganda and it’s a fact that deaths are accelerating up to 5000 in 11 days because of this conflict and no signs of it ending anytime soon. The innocents dying are not launching rockets or dropping bombs.

[Siderite]

The problem is that so many were quick to jump the gun and just blame Israel because of a Hamas minister being quoted, but there has been zero evidence for this or the death toll claimed in this blast (I highly doubt Hamas knew 500 were dead within minutes). The claims about the specific footage can be verified from external sources, but there is far more scepticism towards that from some quarters than blind claims from a Hamas minister. We now have this, recorded timestamps of PIJ and Hamas rocket firing, conversations recorded of Hamas operatives discussing the incident as a failed rocket etc which all point in one direction. Of course it’s possible to be wrong, but there is far more evidence for a failed rocket than Israeli airstrikes. Recent photos of the incident show no cratering or anything you’d associate with an airstrike.

This is important, because those jumping the gun have potentially normalised misinformation, put Jews at risk because of this and created a false narrative which will do nothing but escalate the situation.

I haven’t seen what should be done instead regarding an act of war from Hamas. We know war, especially urban warfare, has a high risk of collateral casualties. War is bad is a trite cliche that most know; the casualties are of course bad. I don’t think anyone truly knows the ideal situation here, and I do not think one exists. However, no other country would accept kidnapping by extremist zealots, and such would cause military conflict in many places. One thing I do think is that this can end if hostages are released and conditions are met. I don’t see why this is so hard for activists to push for, but they only seem to think that Israel has agency here.

[Heath]

What evidence do you have or have the Israeli’s said that their bombing campaign is having any impact on Hamas and the perpetrators of yhe atrocity. The effect I am witnessing is lots of innocent people being killed or severely injured.

Will bombing make Hamas release the hostages? No they don’t care.

Either get on with the invasion or better still call a ceasefire.

[Deereyme66]

Utterly depressing watching this escalate whilst the innocent are trapped and being treated like vermin. Stating the bloody obvious I know, but it really is sickening.

[Siderite]

I do agree, DM. It’s bad and it does make me sad for all involved. I realise my opinion on here is more pro-Israel than most, but I am trying to put forward that it’s more complex than that. I have made no claims about how successful the war has been for Israel yet, my point is more about that conflict is inevitable after it was initiated by Hamas. Any ceasefire without the causes of the conflict being addressed (e.g. hostage release) is fruitless, and it’s not just on Israel to call such. Hamas should do their bit in releasing hostages, and other nations with links could tell them the game is up. They want to play around as Nazis, they should deal with some repercussions. Will bombing release the hostages? I don’t know, but it might destroy Hamas infrastructure and cause them to give up and release the hostages. The other options are diplomacy, while Israeli citizens are tortured, and this could well take years, leading to anger about citizens being mistreated and eventual conflict anyway. Then there’s do nothing and let the hostages rot, which is unpalatable.

It’s not like Hamas, PIJ or Iran give one damn about Palestinian life. Yesterday’s actions show that, and the eagerness of some media and others to immediately take the word of a Hamas minister shows a bias in determining what’s causing the issues. More investigators from outside have got involved and given their interpretations of it being a failed missile incident:

Conclusion:

A missile launched by a Palestinian group exploded mid-air (Reason unknown) and one piece fell on the hospital causing an explosion.

The geolocation and timing of the footage is conclusive.

More information will be added to this thread.

11/X pic.twitter.com/jDJn4OZJLO

— GeoConfirmed (@GeoConfirmed) October 17, 2023

We all know war is bad, it’s a cliche. Yet sometimes war is inevitable, and always will be a massive risk after what happened over a week ago. I hope that Biden’s visit sorts out aid arrangements for water, food and medicine, because that is something I think we can all agree needs to happen. Israel needs to stop preventing that, I definitely agree. They need to make it reach those who need it, because the UN have already said that Hamas have been intentionally taking and refusing to give out medical supplies. Though, I think it’s important to remember the war’s context, and that means putting pressure on Hamas to do what is needed. WWII is regarded as a just war and outside of the far-left (initially) and far-right, no-one demanded we made ceasefire with Germany after they invaded Poland for the sake of civilian casualties. Despite WWII’s understandable nature there were still civilian atrocities from the Allies. These include:

Soviet mass rape – Potentially over 2,000,000 German, Austrian, Hungarian, Polish and Yugoslavian women raped by the Red Army’s liberation.

UK/American/French rape – Potentially 200,000 German women raped by American troops, potentially 45,000 women raped by British troops and 50,000 by French troops.

Allied bombings of Axis powers – 395,000-635,000 German civilians killed by Allied bombings in Hamburg, Dresden, Leipzig, Stuttgart etc. 330,000-900,000 Japanese civilians killed by Allied bombings in Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki etc. 60,000-100,000 Italian killed in bombs, 19,000-30,000 Hungarians, 6,000 Romanians, 1,000 Bulgarians and 2,000 Thai civilians killed in bomb attacks.

Soviet Union ethnic cleansing – Several ethnic groups deported to Siberia and central Asia for alleged collaboration with Nazi Germany. This includes Volga Germans, Poles, Kalmyks, Chechens and Crimean Tatars, among others. The death toll from those who suffered with famine, illness and exposure was likely over 500,000. Soviets would kill those who resisted.

I could list more, such as some of the actions of the Yugoslav partisans (who were the most supportable Balkans force). Many of these were unsupportable and disgusting. Many call the Soviet ethnic cleansing operations genocide. Yet it doesn’t make the war any less of a just war given the context or make our alliance with the Soviet Union wrong, even if it was the lesser of two evils. Some of this is worse than what Israel has done, which is comparable to our bombing raids on Germany. I don’t believe we called for citizen evacuation either. Some of our raids were for infrastructure in aim, but many doubt some like Dresden were. There has been debate over the necessity of this, but most seem to understand why conflict was happening, despite civilian risk, and don’t use it as a means to equivocate between Allies and Axis.

To reiterate, I would like to see Israel minimise its casualties, yet how much can they make this 0% is a question, especially when Hamas try and maximise casualties and prevent civilians from escaping. None of it is good, it’s all upsetting for all involved, but my main goal here is to say it’s not so easy to say that Israel should refrain from conflict or that civilians can escape harm in such. I wish it was another way, and maybe it can be in the future. There won’t be any of it though while Hamas have any power.

[Heath]

A shorter response, give a brief ceasefire a go and negotiate for the release of the hostages.

[Siderite]

And if that fails? How many concessions should Israel make to genocidal terrorists? Would we accept that? How can there be a ceasefire if Hamas are going to still launch missiles and no-one demands them to stop? Why is it only Israel who need to respond to demands?

[Heath]

Where did I say that only Israel should have a ceasefire? If Hamas continue to launch missiles then obviously that is not a ceasefire is it?

[Siderite]

I am pleased you have now clarified it, as it wasn’t above, since I assumed it was a response to what Israel should do. I don’t think Hamas will operate like that, so a ceasefire will only be short lived if there is one and I still don’t know what demands can be conceded to with Hamas; we surely can’t expect Israel to make concessions to terror. It would be an invitation to do it again to get the same result and we wouldn’t countenance it in that situation.

Anyway, I think I am going to do a JI and do a detox. I am not the victim in this, I know, the Palestinians and Israelis are. However, it’s just so miserable and I wish it could just end. I do understand why you, Iron-Awe etc think along such lines and do not think it’s for any reason besides caring. I am just trying to say it’s messier and more complex than presented. No civilian deaths can be described as good. This is the nature of war, but if Hamas are going to start it they are going to get the blame for it from me, much as with Germany in WWII, Germany and Serbia in WWI, UK with the Opium wars etc. It won’t end until conditions are met and I would like to see more public and international pressure on Hamas after a pogrom. In the long term, Hamas needs to be discredited, otherwise we won’t have peace. People can talk about the history, but ultimately, it’s Islamism which is causing the greatest threat to it in the region as a whole (yes, I agree that settlers need to stop too).

[Heath]

Israel must also share the historic blame. A two-state solution should have been agreed by now. The other alternative would be to drive the Palestinians out by force and I am concerned that is the plan. I do agree that either of these outcomes would unlikely be the end of it for Israel.

[Deereyme66]

‘drive the Palestinians out by force’. Hardliners on both sides are keen on ‘driving out’ of course

[Iron-awe]

More distressing by the day, Israel chasing down Hamas and innocent Palestinians, wives, husbands, children, grandparents dying in the process. Surely this can’t go on, this isn’t an eye for an eye or anything of the sort, it’s murder.

[Siderite]

It will continue while Hamas still pose a threat and deliberately embed themselves among the public. They seemingly put an ammunition depot underneath a refugee camp, knowing what that would mean to the civilians they claim to care about. It’s all a mess, but the alternative is not easy. People say we should have a ceasefire, but how does that work? We had a ceasefire brokered by Egypt in 2021 and Hamas broke it on October 7, as they have done repeatedly previously. In these ceasefires they have done nothing to aid Palestinians, and have used all the aid and fuel they get to prepare for more battlings with Israel and attempts to kill Jews. If we have another ceasefire it will just prolong more of the same into the future, and lead to more instances like October 7 and Israeli reaction.

Hamas are not some rational group; they are a theocratic death cult in the mould of ISIS and I don’t see how there can be any long-lasting peace when there is a group who have a specific aim to destroy a nation and murder its inhabitants.

One thing we can do is make life easier for our citizens at home and these marches are getting out of hand, with calls to genocide being chanted (from “river to the sea” to “Khaybar, Khaybar, oh Jews, the army of Mohammed will return”) making British Jews feel too intimidated to enter their own cities. We even have anti-Semitic mobs out for Jews in airports elsewhere.

I have just read this article and find it a long, but valued read on the subject. I agree with the vast majority of it, including its condemnation of settler activity on the West Bank. The arming of them is a disgrace.

https://archive.ph/2023.10.28-061758/https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/decolonization-narrative-dangerous-and-false/675799/

[Iron-awe]

Siderite I’m not saying it’s easy but it’s still murder and it’s difficult and unfair on innocent people, I’m not saying what the answer is I’m just saying the reality is very cruel and unfair.

[Siderite]

It is a cruel world. It’s the nature of war and not different to US led action against ISIS for example, or WWII (and not just from the Axis).

[bartonscorpion]

I completely agree with what Heath says, there should be a short ceasfire of maybe four days, and tell these murdewring Hammas animals to set free all the hostages, and that random bombing will stop.

There seems to be a lot of support in London for the bombing to stop, but it must not be forgotten that it was Hammas that started all this, by invading the border and murdering men, women and kids, 240 of them that were attending a festival, even babies were found that had been beheaded, and these are the animals that are being supported by the London people!!!!!!.

This war could easily become a very long and large war, and many counyries cannot keep out of involvement, actually Hammas have done exactly what Russia have done so why are there no big London protesting marches giving support to Russia???

This present war and the death of inocent people is terrible, but what way can be used to stop these murdering Hammas animals doing the same thing again??. This will happen in England in the not to distant future, with no control of our boarders any more, and good and also evil illegals coming in droves to live in hotels at tax payers cost, this country has lost it’s grip on happenings.

I just hope for some end to this war, but like many Muslem countries, it goes on year after year, and never ends, very sad but that is a fact !!!!

[bartonscorpion]

Iron-awe wrote:

More distressing by the day, Israel chasing down Hamas and innocent Palestinians, wives, husbands, children, grandparents dying in the process. Surely this can’t go on, this isn’t an eye for an eye or anything of the sort, it’s murder.

Agree Iron-Awe, it is murder, but what would you call the way Hammas started this when they went over the border and shot, everyone on site, women, men, children and babies, certainly same or worse because they had no reason to do so, and what about the 240 people taken as hostages by Hammas, can you imagin what their lives are like, captured by those animals, agree it is very, very sad, but Hammas must be eliminated for their actions, and protests that support them in our country that support Hammas must be disbanded, just like these stupid pricks that sit on motor ways with their Stop Oil protests, a tottal bunch of idiots.,

[Deereyme66]

Idiot

[Deereyme66]

Bigoted idiot

1 user thanked author for this post.

Gurnelista

[Author]

Posts