November 19, 2020 at 10:43 am #197743IronIronIronParticipantOffline
Registered On: December 24, 2013
I’ve just read the whole thread. It was hard work!
My conclusion is that BRI doesn’t understand your view point Deerey because there isn’t one.
If you hadn’t responded to the initial post the thread would have died out early.
My view is that a lot of people don’t like Corbyn and the current shenanigans will impact heavily on their view of Labour. You don’t have to have in depth knowledge of the Labour Party to have a view on them (or any other subject as is often proven on here!!).November 19, 2020 at 10:51 am #197744
I mean, I get your point that people don’t pay that much attention to it and I don’t think they do, which is why they don’t explore the full details. This makes it very important to create good impressions. Starmer suspending someone and it being overturned makes him appear weak to the public on a surface level. That’s my point. I am sure on this specific issue people aren’t necessarily thinking of the anti-Semitism, on the whole, but they can see that Starmer isn’t getting his own way and interpret that as the party being out of control from him. Is it over for Starmer? Of course not, but it doesn’t look good. Polls suggested that the majority backed Corbyn’s suspension; letting him back in and going against this is not going to be a positive.
As for it being a healthy discussion or not, I’ve tried to express my points without slander. I know I’m not perfect, and can see the sarcasm may have irritated. I did get irritated when I interpreted an unfair characterisation of my motive. I make mistakes, I know, but I don’t see why it needs to be like that. I don’t think that, on the whole, I have been undue. I thought it was just a disagreement.November 19, 2020 at 11:16 am #197745Deereyme66ParticipantOffline
Registered On: May 8, 2017
‘My conclusion is that BRI doesn’t understand your view point Deerey because there isn’t one.’
Your view triple I. Straight in with the conceit. Even BRI understands the point I’m trying to make.
‘If you hadn’t responded to the initial post the thread would have died out early.’
Now, I would wager, what is the point in that statement? Yes, perhaps it would. As a Labour Party member for many years and aggravated by the Party’s current internal fighting, I’m not likely to sit back and ignore it.
I find your tone quite patronising.November 19, 2020 at 11:42 am #197748
I can understand the frustration at Labour infighting. I don’t think there’s any way around it. The hard left have been seeing Starmer as a traitor, and an opportunity to act, from day one. There have been talk of the SCG trying to challenge him for a while with candidates like Richard Burgon and Ian Lavery.
Now Starmer’s had to take action against Corbyn and they will use this as an excuse, regardless of whether he was readmitted or not. The readmittance of him will allow them to use this against Starmer and feel emboldened. Obviously a continued suspension will anger them, but they won’t be happy either way. At least with the latter we have some repercussions for actions. The former means turning a blind eye to mistreatment of a serious issue, unless Corbyn makes a sincere apology, which he hasn’t. As it’s unavoidable now in any way I see no advantage to letting him back in and it sells out the party’s commitments to equality.
I am also unsure as to Starmer’s culpability really. I think he needs to act in response, but the decision to allow him in was out of his hands. Unfortunately, I don’t think that most Jews or the public will see it that way and think it’s Starmer being weak and allowing him back in. I have seen some comments from Jews saying Starmer has sold them out and let someone off the hook for anti-Semitism minimalisation. I think the public will see it as something which should be in Starmer’s control from perception, and will result in an image of a weak leader.November 19, 2020 at 1:37 pm #197763Iron-aweParticipantOffline
Registered On: June 21, 2017
If the public perceive Starmer to be weak over this issue and however it eventually resolves then the electorate will literally be between a rock and a hard place. The current PM has surely got to rank as one, or more likely the, weakest most bumbling inept PM of all time, the public need to feel there is some light at the end of this current incompetence tunnel.November 19, 2020 at 4:34 pm #197771
Polls do indicate that the general public think refusing Corbyn the whip was the right move, including among Labour voters. If they see that as him in charge, and realise the readmittance was beyond his hands, it might not be so bad.November 19, 2020 at 5:41 pm #197781HeathParticipantOffline
Registered On: August 5, 2017
“My conclusion is that BRI doesn’t understand your view point Deerey because there isn’t one”.
Totally useless smug contribution from 3I as usual. May be 1 day he will write something worth reading.November 19, 2020 at 5:53 pm #197782NorthumbironParticipantOffline
Registered On: January 3, 2014
Very interesting chaps. BRI, you certainly have it in for Jezza!
However I have to agree with Deerey and Heath. Most voters do not look beyond the tabloid headlines.
Corbyn is still revered in large areas of the Northeast. Particularly the area between the Tees and the Tyne. He was a frequent speaker at Durham Miners’ Galas and I know several people who have taken selfies with him at Labour and Trades Union rallies.
Much of his appeal was that he spoke “old school” Labour. Okay, the pits are all closed and shipbuilding is no more but community values die hard, and Corbyn always gave them what they wanted to hear. And let’s be brutally honest about this – the average white, working class, low income family doesn’t spend too much time discussing anti-Semitism! There are a lot of working class Irish Catholics voters around too.
The only reason some of these voters put their cross in the blue box last December was the Tory promise to “Get Brexit done!” A decision that they are already regretting.
As I said before, Corbyn should have done the decent thing and walked for the good of the party and ultimately the country. However I don’t see him as the incarnation of Satan some people obviously do.November 19, 2020 at 6:10 pm #197784
The tabloid headlines focused on his portrayal as an IRA sympathiser/anti-Semite etc though. These are the things which dogged him more than scruffy clothes in the press. You could say the tabloid headlines on such were simplistic, but given his track record on such I can’t see how they could have been honestly defended, which was the problem.
He energised a following, mostly in the cities and among the young, but not outside, as seen in the collapse among the left behind towns outside of Newcastle, Sheffield, Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool. Durham’s student population probably helped there too. Bishop Auckland, Scunthorpe, Morley and other safe seats went Tory.
Those who think it was nothing to do with Corbyn, and solely to do with Brexit, are fooling themselves: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/18/key-points-from-review-of-2019-labour-election-defeat
There’s no way someone with those figures was ever going to win an election. The exit polls suggested some highlighting the anti-Semitism as one reason why. I am not naive enough to think it’s because everyone is clued up on it, but when he couldn’t address it in his own party it was a signifier that he is unable to get a grip on party issues and is a weak PM potential. The argument isn’t that the public were discussing the intricacies of Luciana Berger being bullied out by anti-Semitic bullies, but more “he can’t address these party problems after how many years?! Why should we trust him to run the country?” and people don’t want to associate themselves with people labelled as anti-Semitic.
There are far more who have ill memory of the IRA than fond in this country. Door stoppers have consistently said, from Scotland to Brighton, that members of the public were not happy about having an IRA sympathiser in charge of the opposition. And there was a dip in the polls after the Skripal poisonings and Corbyn’s weak response to it, showing some care, and it did not rebuild. These are all bigger issues than tabloid headlines about scruffy clothes on Remembrance Sunday and far more insurmountable than Brexit alone.
Like I say, you have to assume that many MPs, the door stopping activists, leadership ratings and exit polls on why people voted which way are all lying to assume it was solely a Brexit thing.November 19, 2020 at 6:21 pm #197786Iron-aweParticipantOffline
Registered On: June 21, 2017
Beat me too it BRI, the doorstep feedback pre election day from Labour canvassers was that whilst getting Brexit done was a major reason for voting Tory, an awful lot of Labour voters said they could not vote Labour due to Cornyn being leader. I’ve always said people should vote on policies not personalities and I do believe a lot of the last Labour party manifesto was very popular but alas the Corbyn factor proved to be a major stumbling block for the party not getting elected. Starmer IMO would have had more of a chance of getting Labour elected on that manifesto last December.
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