10000

[64]

Mostly kids and innocents”I support Israel”
Keep cheering them on boys,I like a good war crime

[Siderite]

300000+ dead Germans 1939-1945 (civilians only). Keep cheering the Allied forces. I like a good war crime.

None of this is good, I should say. Should Israel do more? I think so, certainly regarding aid. I don’t see how Israel stopping will make things more palatable, as Hamas firing rockets and looking to repeat pogroms is not a solution.

All could end if they just give up.

[Just Iron]

And ….. even though Hamas have killed not only Israelis but plenty of Gazans over the years .. and have used their own as human shields ..and know the ‘tide’ of humanitarian impulse favours their cause with every passing day …we DEFINITELY should take all these figures at ABSOLUTEly face value because they are produced from the impartial and trustworthy source that is Hamas.

Just thinking out loud. Now how on earth did that transfer to Iron Bru. Couldn’t have been me. I’m taking a break.

[Northumbiron]

64 wrote:

Mostly kids and innocents”I support Israel”
Keep cheering them on boys,I like a good war crime

Why do you support anyone? It’s not a football match!

[Deereyme66]

‘…even though Hamas have killed not only Israelis but plenty of Gazans over the years’

As many as the IDF have killed Palestinian’s over the years? Genuine question. Not seeking to compete.

[Just Iron]

Accepted as a genuine question, Deerey.
The number of Hamas related deaths is difficult to quantify. We roughly know the number from October 7th. We don’t know if the roughly 240 hostages will be added to that figure. We know that Hamas killed over 160 Gazans .. Gays, Christians, ‘collaborators’ and especially Fatah members when they took power in Gaza. They have killed others since ..but no one will ever know the number. They have killed hundreds of other Israelis in rocket strikes and other terrorist attacks over the last couple of decades. There is a school of thought … to which I subscribe … that says that whatever the genuine figure of Gazans in this crisis the main culprits are Hamas.
The number of Palestinians killed by the IDF over the years is also difficult to quantify if we feel the need to compare figures. I don’t know any Hamas members personally. I do know what they say and do and believe, on the basis of both, that they are genocidal against ALL Jews..not just Israelis…. and that they place little value on human life, not even their own. I know many Israelis, male and female, who are past members of the IDF or currently serving. Several are family members. I haven’t met one who has exhibited pathological tendencies. Certainly none are genocidal. I haven’t even met one who hates Arabs. Maybe I should widen my circle … but I’m not attracted to fraternising too closely with anyone from Hamas.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Siderite

[Deereyme66]

Thanks but that’s not what I asked.

[Deereyme66]

Just an observation, when either Israeli or Palestinian officials are questioned on detail by TV or radio interviewers they often get angry and defensive. So should an impartial viewer trust both or neither? Haven’t both been found to have fabricated facts in the past? Please don’t take that to mean I trust Hamas. I really don’t. I’m also not questioning the figures from the 7 Oct atrocity either.

[Iron Age]

Deereyme66 wrote:

Just an observation, when either Israeli or Palestinian officials are questioned on detail by TV or radio interviewers they often get angry and defensive. So should an impartial viewer trust both or neither? Haven’t both been found to have fabricated facts in the past? Please don’t take that to mean I trust Hamas. I really don’t. I’m also not questioning the figures from the 7 Oct atrocity either.

I would certainly not trust either, Hamas are just terrorists, this Israeli adminstration are just liars, (really gives me doubts about proportional representation).
Add to that our own government, the Americans, Russians, Chinese etc. All of them have played fast and loose with the truth.

[Siderite]

I would place more trust in European and American democracies above Russia or China. Not to blindly trust, but we have mechanisms to force out truths with a more independent judiciary, media and functioning opposition. Russia and China just don’t have that, everything is just a subsidiary of the regime (pretty much) and what little critical means exists gets stomped out.

[Deereyme66]

Reason I asked the question above, just one example: a Palestinian surgeon being interviewed last night claimed burns on some children were very indicative of deep white phosphorus burns (it being a contravention of international law to use in war). An Israeli official denied it’s being used and raised a point about Palestinian’s having to say things under duress or fear of persecution by Hamas. It’s claimed this pressure has been proven before and I’m not doubting it happens. However, how can I be sure that is the case every time a Palestinian civilian or medical professional is interviewed? Or am I expected just to take the Israeli officials on their word and not Palestinians? Can you see the issue here?

[Iron Age]

I remember years ago seeing, on TV, phosphorus raining down on a UN camp in Gaza while a BBC reporter and cameraman took shelter.
Phosphorus burns the flesh very badly, it then becomes embedded in the flesh and becomes inert (because of the liquid in the body). When surgeons try to extract it the phosphorus flares up again burning the victim again and also the medics.

[Deereyme66]

I haven’t seen any hard evidence that it’s currently being used. I hope indisputable facts are established.

[Just Iron]

Deereyme66 wrote:

Thanks but that’s not what I asked.

I tried my best. I can’t give exact figures.

The issue that I see for you is that you don’t know who to trust, if anyone. I am less conflicted. I may well be compromised by ties to Israel but I don’t think so. I am comfortable to say that I always try to follow the truth where it leads, even if I have to change my perspective. I have researched this issue and been as rigorous as I can over more than 30 years. I don’t believe that Israel currently has ..and probably never has had .. a real partner for peace. I want the minimum death and suffering today and tomorrow and next week … but not if it means a vast multiplication of pain next year or in ten years time. The real issue for all of us is the legitimacy and morality of the state of Israel. Whether Moslem and carrying the pain and shame of a Jewish population existing and thriving on land once conquered for Allah .. or ‘western progressive’ seeing Israel as an expression of the evils of colonialism at the expense of the ‘innocent indigenous population’.. it will be hard not to place Israel on some sort of moral equivalence with Hamas ..maybe even to go further and celebrate the ‘freedom fighters’ over the evil Jewish usurper who had it coming. Its make your mind up time. Maybe, deep down, you already have ..but at least give ‘What Justice Demands’ by Elan Journo a go. (You don’t have to tell anyone
. and Gurney will never find out).

[Deereyme66]

Correction: white phosphorus is not banned as a chemical weapon under international conventions.

[Deereyme66]

I won’t be reading any Elan Journo material in the pursuit of a balanced objective take on the history of the region, thanks all the same JI. I did plenty of my own research during college and university years, and a substantial amount thereafter.

[Just Iron]

Your prerogative.

[Deereyme66]

Thanks

[Author]

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